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Quote Originally Posted by sapi
Interesting analysis, askthepizzaguy.

I do agree with you that, under some circumstances, the turtler stands no chance of mounting a successful defence. None of the strategies of turtle defence would work if the hare's only goal in the game was to kill that faction, and if they put every resource into it from day one.

But say it's a normal game for five or ten turns. That's necessary anyway, really, to develop armies and differentiate the two sides. At that point, the turtle, knowing that an attack was coming, would have decent garrisons in frontier cities, and could hold for a few turns.

At that point, the turtler does have a good chance.

I'll use the example of the byzantines here, but this would really work for any faction, just at different locations. From day one, I'd have given Thessalonia up for dead, and donated it to the papacy to prevent the hare sacking it. I'd have an army holding greece from the narrow pass above corinth (and east of modern day athens).

Two fleets could block the dardenelles, removing access to many of my core provinces. From there, troops could be churned out from the castle in nicea to reinforce constantinople, which as a large city has the potential of holding out for a significant time period in sieges (and has decent defences).

Any competent player would then, of course, divert the majority of their resources to expansion eastwards. Some quick strikes could capture antolia, then bring the turks to peace, giving me a bigger economic base for no loss. And no, that's not stretching the definition of turtling, as no offensive actions have yet been launched against the other player.

From there, the game gets more interesting. While holding constantinople wouldn't be easy, and it may fall, it could certainly hold the hare up for some time, with a decent garrison. A numerical advantage is meaningless in street to street fighting - four infantry units, backed up by archers, could hold the town square very easily, especially with the battle timer enabled.

At this point, it simply becomes the usual turtle-hare matchup, but with a more developed economy - and there's a good chance that the hare would be held up for long enough for some decent turtle units to come into play.

I'm not saying that the hare would necessarily lose; merely that a human player will make use of bottlenecks that an AI never would, and may buy himself enough time to create a decent standing army.


I'd agree that the human would put up a much more vigorous fight than the AI would. A human with a half stack garrison is harder to beat than an AI with a full stack garrison.

For the sake of this argument, you are Byzantine and I am the HRE or France.

The plan you propose gives up Thessalonica, an interesting move. You may be assuming that the human would not attack the Papacy, or at the very least the Papacy would delay an attacking force. But why shouldn't I attack the Papacy? A blitzer may in fact be excommunicated anyway. Or I might not be Catholic at all. But let's use your scenario; I'm Catholic and I haven't been excommunicated yet. What if I just trapse through Thessalonica, ignoring it completely?

In such a scenario, wouldn't it be better to hold Thessalonica and reap what florins you can from it, while you can?

I certainly do not fault you at all for new tactics. Anything at all that the Turtle can do to change his situation is something I'd have to consider. On this specific one, I question whether it is necessary. Further, I offer a counter-proposal: why not make your stand against the hypothetical invading Catholic from the West in the Thessalonica/Durazzo/Sofia region? Plenty of good mountain passes and hilltops to defend from, a good place to set up an early warning network with a spy and watchtowers, a good place to have delaying forts. In general, a good place to have a first stand against possible sneak attacks. At worst, you force the Blitzer to come up with a truly superior army that can knock out your main defensive force in one of the toughest battle maps around; a steep valley/mountain region. That is quite an effective delaying tactic; I know because I've tried to attack people who were holed up in the valleys of the Alps. Big mistake if not completely prepared, and even if prepared, still expecting a loss of beaucoup troops, thus allowing you to muster a secondary defense at Thessalonica (any seige battle is an excellent roadblock, because it loses time and troops to the attacker). When and if that fails, you have had all the time in the world to prepare for your main defense at Constantinople. If you lose your huge first-line defense force in Thessalonica region, you all of a sudden have florins aplenty to spend on reinforcements for Constantinople, if you don't have reinforcements already. Then, the seige of Thessalonica (a likely event, but be prepared for the attacker to skip and head straight for Constantinople) makes an excellent next-line of defense and delays my strike even further, while providing you with taxes for as long as possible.

In any event, the case can be made to not give ground so quickly. Thessalonica doesn't even need a full garrison, you can stick to freebie militias until pressed, then recruit as many troops as possible when your spy or watchtower spots the enemy approaching.

Believe you me, even as a blitzer, or perhaps especially as a blitzer, I think about possible defenses all the time. I believe you would be right to move east and carve out a safe haven in Asia minor, and perhaps use navies to delay, block, or sink invading fleets to further fortify your territory.

The stand made inside Constantinople should be a last resort as a defense. If possible, and assuming the attack will be coming from the West, I'd recommend a second stack join your first-wave defenders in Thessalonica, or perhaps stationed outside Sofia to react to any Northern threats, as well as reinforce the West. When possible, make your stand far from the heart of your empire, so you have room to fall back, not just once, but twice in this case, and still have time for a massive final stand.

I note that you may consider it more likely that the blitz would strike early... interesting. I tend to go for the soft, rebel targets first, build my armies, attack neighboring factions, expand my front line away from my core territories, and then assault my targets with a massive flood of troops in the form of 2+ stacks sriking rapidly and without mercy, with reinforcements following close behind if I am able to muster them.

Like the Borg, I don't do anything piecemeal. When I come for you, I come in force, and I leave nothing left in my wake. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. It's best to attack me when I am young and vulnerable, because when the collective is up and running, I send the entire hive after you. Much like the Mongol invasion, and with almost as many troops. The troops may be of poor quality at first, but the more I expand, the more distinctive cultures are added to my own, the more and better units I have access to. I can assimilate a Turtle-like AI faction and have equal technology to a human Turtle.

However, it is not in the Turtle's nature to aggressively strike first, so chances are I will have developed quite a bit, and likely you will have as well, before the epic battle takes place.

I'd say Byzantium has a good shot at defending against the West as a Turtle if you use the above suggested tactic. And some further advice: The units don't need to be superb; they only need to be there on the battlefield. Better units are good, but more units are better. Until you can get more and better units, which is best; but that takes florins, and you need to build your economy first. So stick with cheapo troops in large numbers, and have Thessalonica build some armor shops so that the troops you send to defend can all get the good armor as soon as it becomes available. Cheapo troops plus good armor equals decent troops.

Truth be told, it would be a difficult assault. I would NOT be able to strike you right away, so you would have time to rally your defenses, which would further delay my attack, which buys you more time. However, unless you do something drastic, I will continue to build my empire and continue to build my troop levels to the point where no defense may be adequate.

Then again, people have repelled the Mongols and the Timurids with smaller empires than I would be comfortable with; so anything is possible. My question to you is, when would you beat me? How and when would you counter-strike? By the time you accomplish your Turtle goals for your Turtle empire, I will have gobbled up a good third of the map. What is your strategy for taking on an empire thrice your size, especially if you are on defense and the empire in question is pummeling you with a pure militaristic strategy?

That would be not only a defense, but a counter-offensive I would personally love to witness. I believe I would have renewed respect for anyone who could pull that off. The defense against the Borg is one thing... the counter-strike is a whole different beast I have not seen addressed yet.

If the offensive fails against your culture, I believe I would make every effort to defend against your counter-strike, and I would have the economy and vast number of recruitment facilities to rebuild a very large fighting force in short order, especially if I found myself without a giant standing army for some reason.

I think the best you may hope for is a small counter-offensive that catches me off-guard, which leads to a war of attrition. We may become very evenly matched at this point, but by now enough time has passed that my blitzer empire has grown to the point where it can match your Turtle empire. At this point, it's a virtual stalemate, unless someone makes a series of terrible blunders.

In any case, I laud your enthusiastic devotion to your chosen strategy. I believe you would be a formidable opponent, and could possibly advance far enough in your objectives to credibly oppose me on the battlefield. I have to give myself an edge unless there is yet another human in the game, but like two great masters of chess, the edge may not be enough to force a win every time. In such terms, I believe I would be up in space, development and tempo, but the material would be even. A difficult game.