Stronger Player - Turtle vs. Hare

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Denmark would give you an even better advantage then England, asside from the money making british isle, which would be yours soon enough, Denmarks low grade troops (that youd be using throughout most of the game) are at least a match for most other factions mid grade or even better. No, Denmark offers the biggest advantage to the blitzer with the posible exception of an italian faction with thier insanely powerfull low grade militia.

I see no great advantage to England or France, nor even Poland or Hungary, the easy acces to missile cavalry will only speed you up comparatively little. HRE is an advantage to either player due to the close proximity of alot of landlocked regions, but in general starting position means little to the blitzing player.

I dont see how Byzantium is advantagious to the turtler as your capital (and major money maker) is vulnerable to attack from literally any direction and will simultaniously cut your small empire in half.

England is not so vulnerable as you seem to think, great economy allows the recruitment and support of a large navy, and the close proximity of all the regions allow a small standing army to companste the cost. Better as Denmark and take britain (even a turtler would do so I'm sure) giving access to Longships and Dragon Boats and very effective mid-grade troops with comparatively low upkeep cost.

Finally, I say again, you are underestimating the economy of even an early turtle empire. Your entire image of how the game would go requires the turtler to just sit there and let you do whatever you want, and, you see yourself defeating the turtler as easily as the AI in battle. Nither would be the case, dismiss both these rediculous notions and take another look at how the game would go. Yes, you would most likely win, but it will not nearly be the easy ride you are imagining, and if you go into a game with that mindset you would actually stand a small chance of loosing.

Denmark has only one starting province and takes a lot of time to build its economy, as most of the surrounding provinces are fairly well defended for their size, and are tiny. Plus if I were to take the British Isles that quickly I would face excommunication which runs contrary to my early strategy. You can't blitz when the Pope calls a crusade on you, and no one wants to exhange maps and alliances for florins in such a case. Denmark in fact has a very hard time generating a strong blitzing game. Thats why I am enjoying it right now, its giving me a greater challenge than any so far, except Portugal or Russia.

Denmark becomes a powerhouse in the late game, but not really before that.

With England and France I start with massive troop numbers and excellent positional advantages. They are also the only two factions I managed to conquer 108 provinces with by turn 60. Needless to say, they are DESIGNED to blitz.

First of all, they can crusade directly through Spain into the Moors, And then quickly backstab Spain and Portugal and conquer them in ONE TURN. That's three, count them, three factions annihilated in a single turn. Bribe senor Pope until he likes you again, and you can't be excommunicated.

Boom. Thats numero uno. Number two, once you have all of England/France, Spain, and Africa under your control, a SINGLE additional crusade wipes out the rest of the map. Thats how you beat all factions (minus aztecs) by turn 60.

You merely conquer any rebel fortress and leave the crusade during that turn, and all of a sudden you have a full stack on non crusading troops to backstab HRE, Italy, Poland, and Hungary.

Chances are, by then at least one Catholic faction has been excommed. That means you can slay them for free with crusaders. It's too easy.

So thats why England and France are indestructible blitzers.

The HRE is slightly faster at the beginning, but unfortunately has more than two directions to expand in. I'm sorry but the blitz falls apart after 50 regions fall, and it crumbles due to bloated empire, massive troop numbers, poor economy and post-crusade debt.

Poland and Hungary can do the same thing. Crusade towards Baghdad, pummel the Byzantines, Turks, and Egyptians all at once, and then sack and sack their way to public order in the Muslim lands until the second crusade, wherein they attack the Moors and doom the entire map in reverse order. Nevermind the fact that a few mounted ranged troops can decimate entire infantry armies, which the Ai foolishly parades around with in the early game. You can make their few mounts rout easily, and the rest is child's play.

I think you underestimate these factions. They are virtually indestructible in the hands of a master.

Byzantium is too defensible, and cannot blitz properly, to be considered a non-turtling faction. Religious conversion of most of the map, and lack of crusading means the SLOW way to blitz. You can defend the entire sea with your SUPREME naval power (all your cities are ports, you can afford it) and you can EASILY defend the mountains of Greece and Turkey from foolish land assaults.

Byzantium is the ULTIMATE turtle faction. Even I love to turtle with her. Those mounted troops with ranged abilities are excellent at repelling hordes of troops, making them superior defenders. Trouble is they are expensive, and you can't crusade your way to free ones. Nope, Byzantine has the best chance at holding off crusaders with a stronghold in Greece, and slowly overtaking the Muslim lands until they are converted, then taking Italy, Spain, France, and HRE with ease.

Ps Byzantium is great because of not only it's ability to defend, but relative ease in controlling the seas (they actually have relevant seas) and the fact that the AI doesnt know how to attack. It might be weaker if every faction attacked at once, in one turn, but they dont. And they dont know how to plan a prolonged war. Usually its a few landed troops and a port blockade. This game favors the aggressor because the AI cant ever destroy you. Even their pathetic Ai-run crusades usually involve a single stack or two from each faction. Simply slaying their general ends the campaign. It's too simple to defend against the AI. And attacking Byzantium as a human player requires a tremendous investment of resources if they are actively defending. Not to mention they can seriously counterattack you with a single navy and a stack dropped off easily on your shores. The mountains and seas make it impenetrable, due to their superior starting economy, troops, and naval forces. Just because the AI doesnt know how to handle Byz doesn't mean a human couldnt fight valliantly with it.

The trouble with England's defensiveness is, yes it can field a large navy, but it doesnt MATTER.

Anyone who controls the Belgian, or northern French provinces can keep a ship safely in port until a large army is ready to cross and do it in one turn.

Anyone can also simply recruit a merc ship and cross in one turn.
"My eyes... the goggles do nothing!"- Rainier Wolfcastle, the Simpsons

The ships do nothing defensively. Sorry to disagree with your analysis.
(I'm so stubborn, aren't I? Sheesh. How do you people stand me?)

And once again, I've layed out why the turtle is easy to beat. I can harass them, and they lack the initiative, and my economy is boundless. There's only so much you can develop a smaller nation. And by turn 30, I've got half the map rolled up. Turtles do not start with a massive empire, if they did, they could afford to be so... turtle-y.

Slowly taking one or two provinces from the AI every few turns will not make much of a difference. Fielding a strong defense wastes a LOT of money that could have otherwise been spent on economic or territorial expansion. It yields you no economic reward, and it can suffocate and choke you into debt.

I can field more troops, which gives me more possibilities to attack from multiple fronts, and I can decimate your navy if neccesary, block your ports, cause devastation through your lands, lay seige to your cities, slaughter just enough of your heavy expensive troops to cause you economic pain in recovery, and meanwhile, it costs me close to nothing to do so.

Its all about the benjamins. Offense beats defensive play in this game.

Even if you swarmed all of your troops together and attempted to knock me out quickly, I'm a blitzer and I'm gunning for you. I'd seige your relatively undefended cities and slay your core provinces, burning all that you used to have and selling what's left for profit, and move on.

You could trade hits with me, but the blitzer usually has more provinces, making that a very tricky strategy at best. Granted, you would be a major pain in the butt, but you'd be pretty much toast yourself, and I'd still have more provinces.

More equals better in this game. No matter how you slice it, a thousand peasants beats a hundred dismounted knights. Just add one general and watch those peasants actually engage, surround, and defeat superior forces.

Maybe it's not realistic, but I didnt design the game, I just play it.

I dont have an unrealistic view of how the turtle would play. Yes, they would be a tough nut to crack, but I dont have to destroy them immediately. By the time I get around to it, I'm ten times the size of the Mongol horde, and I'm a human not a silly computer.

Unless you own half of the map and have marshalled all your forces at every access point, I say good day to you.

Any turtle must counterstrike quickly, which is usually contrary to what turtles do, and more blitzerish. Otherwise the game slowly progresses in my favor over time. Otherwise, they must have a large empire, which again, runs counter to the Turtle's stated plans.

You can't have 12 provinces and 15 stacks of troops very easily.

I on the other hand routinely have that many rather early, and I can endlessly replace them. You can't defeat that unless you're bigger than me, or I am a complete idiot.

Thats my take. Feel free to disagree, but I'm afraid all the arguments I've seen have not, by my calculations (and by the calculations of most) proved the turtle to be much of a threat.



======================

For more information on how blitzers completely and totally dominate this game, I refer you all to my legendary (immodestly, yes it was) thread regarding England.

Hundreds of huge color screenshots of my devastating strategy described above to annihilate the entire map in only two crusades.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87236

If too many people view it, it breaks for a month. Come back again later. Should be working now.