Stronger Player - Turtle vs. Hare

[Robespierre]

ATPG, surely there are limits to this? you're not saying you don't build? not even merchants guilds in pursuit of that elusive monopoly on fruit?

definately a pure turtle makes soup and the sounding-body for a primitive lyre. but as the blitzer don't you need to exert some control over vast empire at all.

reminds me of Iain Banks is it feersum enjinn:What happens when the unstoppable force meets the immovable object?
The unstoppable force stops; the immovable object moves.

[Askthepizzaguy]

ATPG, surely there are limits to this? you're not saying you don't build? not even merchants guilds in pursuit of that elusive monopoly on fruit?

definately a pure turtle makes soup and the sounding-body for a primitive lyre. but as the blitzer don't you need to exert some control over vast empire at all.

reminds me of Iain Banks is it feersum enjinn:What happens when the unstoppable force meets the immovable object?
The unstoppable force stops; the immovable object moves.

I do indeed build. Mostly troop recruitment buildings in cities that would actually benefit from them (actual cities, decent castles). Then I work on public order buildings, if I have the money.

Eventually, I will capture regions that have blacksmiths and so forth... so it's fairly unneccessary to build my own.

I wouldn't pillage a decent merchant's guild. And by the late game, it's too wrapped up for me to be concerned with merchants, guilds, or anything peripheral to the actual seiging and destruction of the enemy.

Yes, there are limits to my strategy, it fails against multiple human opponents, fellow blitzers (or an even game... we both lose), and in games like The Long Road where I can field exactly two seiging armies at a time, if I try really hard. Then... it's defender advantage? Actually, they go bankrupt trying to defend and cannot field enough troops either. So we are both weakened, but at least my territory is expanding.

I've noticed the Lands To Conquer mod makes holding blitzed territory or purchased territory harder and unprofitable to some extent. That does indeed slow my advance.

But eventually, it's all the same result.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Caption: I still have 33 turns to go before I reach the ratio of one province per turn.

[Privateerkev]

Since I'm starting to be held up as the "Turtle Champion" I should make something real clear. Again.

In my opinion, in a 1 v 1 M2TW Grand Campaign MP game, a pure turtle will always lose. My posts have only tried to refute some specific points about how easy such a victory would be for the blitzer. I claim that I can add to the time it would take for the blitzer to win. I do not believe I could effect the eventual outcome though. The math is just too weighted in the blitzer's favor. Eventually you will be crushed by the sheer weight of numbers. No matter how good of a pure turtle you are, eventually the rest of the map will be the color of your opponents faction. And then you will get stomped on like a bug.

Kingdoms might change things a bit. The Brittania Campaign might be more difficult for a blitzer due to the massive unrest that a different culture causes when you take a settlement. So, without having tested it, I believe the English in the Brittania campaign have a good chance at winning as a pure turtle in a 1 v 1 MP game.

In MP games, no matter what campaign, that have more than 2 people, things change for the blitzer. There, the name of the game is diplomacy. If the blitzer can gain diplomatic support, he can blitz in the early game and be in a powerful position in the middle game. If no one sees the threat he poses in the middle game, he can then whomp in the later game and win. If the blitzer can not gain diplomatic support, then while he is blitzing, he will find that all of his settlements have disappeared and have been divided up amongst the other players.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Since I'm starting to be held up as the "Turtle Champion" I should make something real clear. Again.

In my opinion, in a 1 v 1 M2TW Grand Campaign MP game, a pure turtle will always lose. My posts have only tried to refute some specific points about how easy such a victory would be for the blitzer. I claim that I can add to the time it would take for the blitzer to win. I do not believe I could effect the eventual outcome though. The math is just too weighted in the blitzer's favor. Eventually you will be crushed by the sheer weight of numbers. No matter how good of a pure turtle you are, eventually the rest of the map will be the color of your opponents faction. And then you will get stomped on like a bug.

Kingdoms might change things a bit. The Brittania Campaign might be more difficult for a blitzer due to the massive unrest that a different culture causes when you take a settlement. So, without having tested it, I believe the English in the Brittania campaign have a good chance at winning as a pure turtle in a 1 v 1 MP game.

In MP games, no matter what campaign, that have more than 2 people, things change for the blitzer. There, the name of the game is diplomacy. If the blitzer can gain diplomatic support, he can blitz in the early game and be in a powerful position in the middle game. If no one sees the threat he poses in the middle game, he can then whomp in the later game and win. If the blitzer can not gain diplomatic support, then while he is blitzing, he will find that all of his settlements have disappeared and have been divided up amongst the other players.

They don't hand out those awards for nothing. Privateerkev is absolutely correct on all points.

King Turtle and King Blitzer agree, one on one it's no contest, but in 3 or better its anyone's game.

Blitzing is a terrible idea as no one would permit the blitzer to carve up the map, even if they were allied. Not unless the blitzer was also ceding territory to his ally. And even so... why trust the dangerous, powerful blitzer? He might be used as a tool to eliminate your neighbor and expand your empire through territorial gifts, but otherwise, why tie your fate so completely with someone who's stated goal is to eliminate you?

The blitzer, i.e. me, would be willing to cooperate as it offers me every advantage. Gifting you territories I can't afford to hold on my own in exchange for florins to build my armies, alliances, and promises of your own to guard my flank? that is a diplomatic treaty I'd be willing to sign AND honor.

You would need to demonstrate trustworthiness at the beginning. Leaving myself vulnerable to you means I need cash up front in case you betray me. And as you well know, the blitzer does not need to betray you until you're the last one standing. And I'll even tell you up front that's my intention. You'd bog me down in the interim if I backstabbed you, for little gain on my end. In other words, yes, I would be trustworthy as an ally. If you give me the starting florins I need, the honest defense of my border against an aggressor, and an alliance, I'd be willing to wipe out your neighbor for you and gift you half of their territory as payment. Just maintain my trust and you might get more favors from me, like additional territory in exchange for religious conversion missions to soften up my targets.

Or perhaps military assistance on the battlefield, rare if ever that I might need it.

Just remember, if you were to betray me first (as I expect you would) I would make certain my next crusade or jihad landed on your doorstep, I would burn your cities to the ground, and gift them to your worst enemies.

I'm very honest, but I'm also someone you may not want to deal with, and definitley not one to betray too soon. It might not be to your advantage to help me, unless you feel me increasing the size of your turtle empire prepares you for my eventual assault, and gives us an even endgame which would be fun. In which case, my diplomat is at your doorstep willing to make the deal.

I betray the computer routinely, but that is only because the AI is absolutely untrustworthy whenever there is even the slightest motive to betray.

I would be much more reliable an ally with a human. Probably because I miss having allies I can trust.

Sounds like Kingdoms will be a fun game... if I werent busy with Final exams I'd look for it.