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Thread: New factions?
Originally Posted by Marcus Ulpius:
Thracians - I know that after Lysimachos defeat they weren't much of a force, but I think adding them may lead to some new interesting options in that region. Btw, Getae were also not a single entity, yet they are in game and uniting the tribes is one of their campaign objectives, for Thracians that could be making Lysimachus dreams come true :)
Ahem. The Getae were Thracians...Thracians - I know that after Lysimachos defeat they weren't much of a force, but I think adding them may lead to some new interesting options in that region. Btw, Getae were also not a single entity, yet they are in game and uniting the tribes is one of their campaign objectives, for Thracians that could be making Lysimachus dreams come true :)
Now if you were to suggest a different Thracian tribe, say the Odrysai, now that would be something different.
Originally Posted by :
You're not still standing behind your (at least partially) racist assessment of "tribal" Africans from Ethiopia, are you?
Racist? Yeah, man. Whatever.You're not still standing behind your (at least partially) racist assessment of "tribal" Africans from Ethiopia, are you?
Anyway, I apologize for my quick reaction concerning the Kushites. They were clearly not as underdeveloped as I might have originally thought.
Originally Posted by Hax:
Racist? Yeah, man. Whatever.
Anyway, I apologize for my quick reaction concerning the Kushites. They were clearly not as underdeveloped as I might have originally thought.
Well, it's a simplistic, stereotypical view. You wouldn't assume even the least developed European culture used sticks at that time, but for a little-understood African nation you were comfortable with that same assumption. Racist? Yeah, man. Whatever.
Anyway, I apologize for my quick reaction concerning the Kushites. They were clearly not as underdeveloped as I might have originally thought.
I know that putting it like this only puts you on the defensive, so I'm sorry. It's really not personal. I just try to point out inconsistencies in people's logic whenever I can.
Originally Posted by Methuselah:
Hooooo boy! You're in for a treat!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103202
Thanks for the link. Good to see they'll be there.Hooooo boy! You're in for a treat!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103202
No problemo, Ulpsie. 
I think along with Pergamon, there will be a faction slot for the Boii to curb middle Europe expansion by the Getai and Sweboz. Also, a numidian faction of some kind so Carthage does not get super powerful by 250 by taking all of Western Norther Africa. Other then that, I have no clue who else would go in. These two factions however I am sure will be in, not for historical accuracy but for the game balance needed that these two would bring to their respective regions.
Originally Posted by ACIN:
I think along with Pergamon, there will be a faction slot for the Boii to curb middle Europe expansion by the Getai and Sweboz. Also, a numidian faction of some kind so Carthage does not get super powerful by 250 by taking all of Western Norther Africa. Other then that, I have no clue who else would go in. These two factions however I am sure will be in, not for historical accuracy but for the game balance needed that these two would bring to their respective regions.
Yeah, those are all the possible factions I could imagine, too. I wonder what the EB Team has in store for us...I think along with Pergamon, there will be a faction slot for the Boii to curb middle Europe expansion by the Getai and Sweboz. Also, a numidian faction of some kind so Carthage does not get super powerful by 250 by taking all of Western Norther Africa. Other then that, I have no clue who else would go in. These two factions however I am sure will be in, not for historical accuracy but for the game balance needed that these two would bring to their respective regions.
muaaahahahahaha
edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.
edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.
Originally Posted by paullus:
muaaahahahahaha
edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.
Excellent work on the Han & Qin unit rosters btw paullus.muaaahahahahaha
edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.
Originally Posted by paullus:
muaaahahahahaha
edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.
Excellent. I need another history fix soon; if I get cold turkey I end up turning to philosophy.muaaahahahahaha
edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.
Originally Posted by Krusader:
Excellent work on the Han & Qin unit rosters btw paullus.
Excellent work on the Han & Qin unit rosters btw paullus.
I hope its not more spamming, Methuselah...
As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name:
there will be a faction slot for the Boii to curb middle Europe expansion by the Getai and Sweboz. .
That's a fine idea, and I heartily support it, however, how much do we know about the Boii? The EB team would have tough time developing them.there will be a faction slot for the Boii to curb middle Europe expansion by the Getai and Sweboz. .
As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.
Originally Posted by paullus:
muaaahahahahaha
edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.
If it wasn't for your edit, I would have condemned you for wanton cruelty and needless spam. However, I like the fact that you decided to give us some top secret information. It fills my conceit knowing that my glory is so great as to drive EB members into loosening their tongues.muaaahahahahaha
edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.
Originally Posted by AP:
As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.
You may well be right, but they were one of the better ones. They did, after all, beat back the Seleucids, eh? Eh?!As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.
Originally Posted by Methuselah:
I would have condemned you for wanton cruelty and needless spam..
Speak for yourself Meth... Your hypocrisy is worthy of Bush when he remarked on Russia's invasion of Georgia as being "unacceptable conduct in the 21st Century." and "being an unprecedented violation of the rights of a sovereign nation such as Georgia" I would have condemned you for wanton cruelty and needless spam..
.If this was too political for these forums, then the moderator should feel free to delete it (just the invasion part - hopefully not the whole post!).
Originally Posted by AP:
Speak for yourself Meth... Your hypocrisy is worthy of Bush
You know the EB Team's stance against spam. Please stay on topic or I will have you "...hung from tha neck 'till yer feet quit kickin'!"Speak for yourself Meth... Your hypocrisy is worthy of Bush
Originally Posted by AP:
That's a fine idea, and I heartily support it, however, how much do we know about the Boii? The EB team would have tough time developing them.
Who were they, anyways? An alpine tribe of some sort? Celtic? German? Thai? Also, since this relates to empty areas on the EB map, I'm living in hope of a baltic/or just north of the Getai faction. There is already quite a unit roster up there that can be taken advantage of... That's a fine idea, and I heartily support it, however, how much do we know about the Boii? The EB team would have tough time developing them.
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.
Not exactly. They were one of the bigger and wealthier city states in 272 B.C., and the most important of the Ionian cities. This gave them the capability to stave of the Seleucids as well as the Galatians, and even go on the offence. At one point, Pergamon controlled a major chunk of Asia Minor, including the Kleruch settlements that were a major source of manpower for the Seleucid Empire. This gave them both the wealth and the manpower to set themselves up as a major successor state. Unfortunately this success was short-lived, but compare it to Syracuse who never managed control Sicily, and was at this point only able to stave of the Carthaginians with help of the Romans.As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.
Pergamian Kingdom:
And you're still doubting?
=======================
And you're still doubting?
=======================
Originally Posted by :
Well, it's a simplistic, stereotypical view. You wouldn't assume even the least developed European culture used sticks at that time, but for a little-understood African nation you were comfortable with that same assumption.
Yes, I know, and for that, I apologize.Well, it's a simplistic, stereotypical view. You wouldn't assume even the least developed European culture used sticks at that time, but for a little-understood African nation you were comfortable with that same assumption.
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
That's a fine idea, and I heartily support it, however, how much do we know about the Boii? The EB team would have tough time developing them.
How much do we know about the Saba?That's a fine idea, and I heartily support it, however, how much do we know about the Boii? The EB team would have tough time developing them.
Less than we know about the Boii.
Originally Posted by Hax:
Less than we know about the Boii.
Ta Da.Less than we know about the Boii.
Originally Posted by Hax:
And you're still doubting?
Yes as a matter of fact. There are too many nations around Mediterranean anyway. EB team says they strive to represent everything and everyone equally, even going as far as giving more provinces to the Northern and Steppe areas of the map than most people though was prudent. For that I admire the team. Some areas of the map, such as Eastern Europe are basically crying out for a faction, whereas the area around Pergamon is already crowded as it is. There is already almost no Eleutheroi provinces in that area, and now there is going to be even less. Saba, on the other hand are in an another area that lacks faction. And you're still doubting?
Anyway, how is the EB Team going to implement so many new factions and units, while keeping the old units when there a limit to 255 models and a total unit limit of 500? That is one question that I did not hear voiced.
Here is what I previously said on this:
Originally Posted by :
What kind of unique units will Pergamon have? Pergamon Hoplites, that have the same skin (with the exception of different coloured and patterned shield)as Greek Classical Hoplites, and with the exception of a different name, plus 1 more attack or 2 more defence skill than the regular Classical Hoplite; Akontistai with a different hat and a different skin tan?
What kind of unique units will Pergamon have? Pergamon Hoplites, that have the same skin (with the exception of different coloured and patterned shield)as Greek Classical Hoplites, and with the exception of a different name, plus 1 more attack or 2 more defence skill than the regular Classical Hoplite; Akontistai with a different hat and a different skin tan?
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
Yes as a matter of fact. There are two many nations around Mediterranean anyway. EB team says they strive to represent everything and everyone equally, even going as far as giving more provinces to the Northern and Steppe areas of the map than most people though was prudent. For that I admire the team. Some areas of the map, such as Eastern Europe are basically crying out for a faction, whereas the area around Pergamon is already crowded as it is. There is already almost no Eleutheroi provinces in that area, and now there is going to be even less. Saba, on the other hand are in an another area that lacks faction.
Anyway, how is the EB Team going to implement so many new factions and units, while keeping the old units when there a limit to 255 models and a total unit limit of 500? That is one question that I did not hear voiced.
Here is what I previously said on this:
Model limit is unknown but some guy had managed to insert 800 model entries without any crash. So basically 500 unit limit, at least 500 model limit.Yes as a matter of fact. There are two many nations around Mediterranean anyway. EB team says they strive to represent everything and everyone equally, even going as far as giving more provinces to the Northern and Steppe areas of the map than most people though was prudent. For that I admire the team. Some areas of the map, such as Eastern Europe are basically crying out for a faction, whereas the area around Pergamon is already crowded as it is. There is already almost no Eleutheroi provinces in that area, and now there is going to be even less. Saba, on the other hand are in an another area that lacks faction.
Anyway, how is the EB Team going to implement so many new factions and units, while keeping the old units when there a limit to 255 models and a total unit limit of 500? That is one question that I did not hear voiced.
Here is what I previously said on this:
Pergamon unit roster has not been finalized, but go read the preview for some thoughts the EB team have.
Pergamon was among five factions the EB team chose at once when we decided to make EB2. They were a significant player in Anatolian politics and we could not ignore that.
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
Some areas of the map, such as Eastern Europe are basically crying out for a faction...
Well, apart from the Bastarnae and Boshporian Kingdom, both of which might very well make it into EBII, I don´t really see any possible factions, unless you count the Boii as Eastern Europe.Some areas of the map, such as Eastern Europe are basically crying out for a faction...
That´s 2 or 3 factions, where´d you want the remaining 7 to go?
1 Mauretania
2 Boii
3 Arevaci
4 Boshporian Kingdom
5 Pergamon
6 Bastarnae
7 Odrysai
8 Belgae
9 Massyles/Masaesyles
10 Scripting/Gandharan satrapy/Nabatae/Germanic tribe/something else
My current predictions. Not quite satisfied with them, feel like quite a few are wrong, especially unsure about Odrysai, but I figure I had to put this up sooner or later.
2 Boii
3 Arevaci
4 Boshporian Kingdom
5 Pergamon
6 Bastarnae
7 Odrysai
8 Belgae
9 Massyles/Masaesyles
10 Scripting/Gandharan satrapy/Nabatae/Germanic tribe/something else
My current predictions. Not quite satisfied with them, feel like quite a few are wrong, especially unsure about Odrysai, but I figure I had to put this up sooner or later.
Originally Posted by Krusader:
Model limit is unknown but some guy had managed to insert 800 model entries without any crash.
Say whAT!?!? Hardcodes, anyone? Yes, you could do that, but that would require creating new .exe, which is illegal, right?Model limit is unknown but some guy had managed to insert 800 model entries without any crash.
Huh? Why? 42?
Let's make it clear: RTW DMB is limited to some <=256 (?) models. So if each model were to have a unique ID (which it probably has) this could've been very well done in an address space of just 1 byte (or 8 bits inside some ID value). That corresponds to a max of 256 models by ID-rules anyways.
So since M2TW has moved beyond the 256 limit, naturally an 8 bit/1 byte address space no longer suffices for any ID tagging. Assuming an ID-tagging mechanism which uses separate chunks of memory allocated for this specific purpose, then we're onto at least double the address space (2 bytes) or: 2^16 =65536 models. If we don't, then from 'this guy's experience' we may deduce that at least 2 bits were added to the address space, upping the limit to at least as much as 1024 models.
Of course this is theory and the developpers might've very well introduced an arbitrary cap. But now you can see why a limit is not known: efficient limit testing would require you to run a test over twice the amount of DMB data of the previous test. For all practical purposes M2TW offers more model-space than we currently fill; and even if you solve this 'limit' programatically: who'd let his PC munch away for hours to do that? Each test grows with a factor 2 in size until you hit that limit. Then you'd have to recursively reduce difference towards either a previously known good test or bad test (depending on the outcome of the latest test) and thereby approach the real limit.
Say the limit was 11:
1 < good
2 < good
4 < good
8 < good
16 < bad
12 < bad
10 < good
11 < good
Tried both 10 and 12 so can't reduce any further: 11 must be the limit.
Now try that on: a limit of (2^13 - 3) which equals 8189. Keep in mind: each test requires a full write file/check with M2TW/evaluate result cycle.
Let's make it clear: RTW DMB is limited to some <=256 (?) models. So if each model were to have a unique ID (which it probably has) this could've been very well done in an address space of just 1 byte (or 8 bits inside some ID value). That corresponds to a max of 256 models by ID-rules anyways.
So since M2TW has moved beyond the 256 limit, naturally an 8 bit/1 byte address space no longer suffices for any ID tagging. Assuming an ID-tagging mechanism which uses separate chunks of memory allocated for this specific purpose, then we're onto at least double the address space (2 bytes) or: 2^16 =65536 models. If we don't, then from 'this guy's experience' we may deduce that at least 2 bits were added to the address space, upping the limit to at least as much as 1024 models.
Of course this is theory and the developpers might've very well introduced an arbitrary cap. But now you can see why a limit is not known: efficient limit testing would require you to run a test over twice the amount of DMB data of the previous test. For all practical purposes M2TW offers more model-space than we currently fill; and even if you solve this 'limit' programatically: who'd let his PC munch away for hours to do that? Each test grows with a factor 2 in size until you hit that limit. Then you'd have to recursively reduce difference towards either a previously known good test or bad test (depending on the outcome of the latest test) and thereby approach the real limit.
Say the limit was 11:
1 < good
2 < good
4 < good
8 < good
16 < bad
12 < bad
10 < good
11 < good
Tried both 10 and 12 so can't reduce any further: 11 must be the limit.
Now try that on: a limit of (2^13 - 3) which equals 8189. Keep in mind: each test requires a full write file/check with M2TW/evaluate result cycle.
Are you serious?
Yup. I'm definitely not going to do that in the forseeable future. 
Foot told me the M2TW DMB lists its own 'cap' of sorts, but whether that's used as a hint/check for the M2TW engine to create the required amount of model object representations more quickly & efficiently or whether the sky really is the limit... IDK.
EDIT: Just imagine my 'model' is actually correct - imagine then that the limit was 2 bytes -> 65536 models. Now with this 'efficient' testing you would get at this cap 65536 during the 'first phase' while you're simply doubling test-data.
Next step (131072 models) would yield 'bad'. Okay, let's reduce... next step 98304 yields still bad... can you imagine the time that would take? Not to mention hardware?
Foot told me the M2TW DMB lists its own 'cap' of sorts, but whether that's used as a hint/check for the M2TW engine to create the required amount of model object representations more quickly & efficiently or whether the sky really is the limit... IDK.
EDIT: Just imagine my 'model' is actually correct - imagine then that the limit was 2 bytes -> 65536 models. Now with this 'efficient' testing you would get at this cap 65536 during the 'first phase' while you're simply doubling test-data.
Next step (131072 models) would yield 'bad'. Okay, let's reduce... next step 98304 yields still bad... can you imagine the time that would take? Not to mention hardware?
Originally Posted by Hax:
Less than we know about the Boii.
Hardly. We have plenty of archaeological (figural and non) and epigraphic evidence for many aspects of Sabaean culture, including religious, social, and war-related activity; the same certainly cannot be said for the Boii.Less than we know about the Boii.
I thought it was still uncertain if the Saba even originated in Southern Arabia or Eastern Ethiopia.
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