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Thread: Double Standards, anyone?

  1. #1
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Double Standards, anyone?

    Putting a Christian object in a jar of urine is called art and funded by the government, while putting a Muslim Koran in a toilet gets you arrested for a hate crime.

    http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...,6882662.story

    NEW YORK (AP) _ A 23-year-old man was arrested Friday on hate-crime charges after he threw a Quran in a toilet at Pace University on two separate occasions, police said.

    Stanislav Shmulevich of Brooklyn was arrested on charges of criminal mischief and aggravated harassment, both hate crimes, police said. It was unclear if he was a student at the school. A message left at the Shmulevich home was not immediately returned.

    The Islamic holy book was found in a toilet at Pace's lower Manhattan campus by a teacher on Oct. 13. A student discovered another book in a toilet on Nov. 21, police said.
    Hmm, will the lefties in academia complain of the 'chilling effect' on free speech? Oh, wait, he was doing politically incorrect stuff, so they couldn't care less about infringements of rights.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    I distinctly remembered that a certain Chocolate Jesus exhibit, an art expression rather than an act of vandalism, was canceled by mainstream public pressure...

    What's the double standard again?

    The case sounds like the police and the school just need someone to make "an example of" after a series of ethnic incidents though. Not exactly justice or a viable arrest but I wouldn't call that a double standard against Christians or other some such thin-skinned self-victimization nonsense. The issue is whether it's a hate crime or he's just practicing his freedom of speech, I lean on the latter actually :/
    Last edited by AntiochusIII; 07-29-2007 at 03:11.

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    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Well, if it was someone else's Quran, which he'd snatched off them and thrown in a toilet, then fair enough. Otherwise, this seems very silly.
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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    As the nephew of a plumber... I'm outraged.

    For the young'uns, here is a wikipedia article, with photo, about CR's reference to "Putting a Christian object in a jar of urine..., which occured in 1989, during Daddy Bush's regime.
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 07-29-2007 at 03:27.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
    I distinctly remembered that a certain Chocolate Jesus exhibit, an art expression rather than an act of vandalism, was canceled by mainstream public pressure...
    Irrelevant; I am talking about the government taking forcible action, not public pressure, which can be ignored.

    Well, if it was someone else's Quran, which he'd snatched off them and thrown in a toilet, then fair enough. Otherwise, this seems very silly.
    Well, if he did that I'd expect charges of theft and the like.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Unfortunately for the student, he has not cloaked himself in any of the protective layers that allow offensive behavior to be "protected" speech. If he threw a Koran into a toilet onstage in the middle of a stand-up comedy routine, the cops would have no case. In fact, if he could argue that his action was in any way an artistic expression, he would be in the clear.

    I'm not sure it's a double-standard, so much as a legal peculiarity. To take a less politically charged example, if I offer a nice lady $100 to have sex with me, I'm guilty of soliciting, and can be charged. If I ask a nice lady $100 to have sex with me in front of a camera, or on a stage, or while posing for a painting, I am protected by various legal precedents relating to freedom of speech and expression.

    Likewise, if the guy who did "Piss Christ" had simply dunked a plastic crucifix in a toilet, he could be charged with criminal mischief and what have you. But instead he displayed a photo of his offensive act at an art show. His funding can be yanked, and he can be shunned by people of good taste, but he cannot be convicted of a crime.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Unfortunately for the student, he has not cloaked himself in any of the protective layers that allow offensive behavior to be "protected" speech. If he threw a Koran into a toilet onstage in the middle of a stand-up comedy routine, the cops would have no case. In fact, if he could argue that his action was in any way an artistic expression, he would be in the clear.

    I'm not sure it's a double-standard, so much as a legal peculiarity. To take a less politically charged example, if I offer a nice lady $100 to have sex with me, I'm guilty of soliciting, and can be charged. If I ask a nice lady $100 to have sex with me in front of a camera, or on a stage, or while posing for a painting, I am protected by various legal precedents relating to freedom of speech and expression.

    Likewise, if the guy who did "Piss Christ" had simply dunked a plastic crucifix in a toilet, he could be charged with criminal mischief and what have you. But instead he displayed a photo of his offensive act at an art show. His funding can be yanked, and he can be shunned by people of good taste, but he cannot be convicted of a crime.
    Actually, isn't that exactly what a double-standard is? Assuming he didn't obtain the books via illegal means, he'll be claiming it was political expression- that is, if his lawyer has an ounce of brains.

    As to hate crimes.... I find the entire premise to be ridiculous. "Hate" isn't a crime. If someone commits a crime, punish for them for it- if they didn't commit a crime, leave them be.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 07-29-2007 at 07:38.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    He should be ridiculed and laughed at for being an idiot, however, he certainly should not be prosecuted for anything.

    The freedom of speech is absolute, and, while I may not always like it, it goes both ways.

    There. Am I lefty enough for you, Crazed Rabbit?

    EDIT: This is, of course, assuming he owned said books. If this was a part of an attempt to rid the school of Qurans or something, then let the idiot burn for destroying other peoples property. You can't have nutcases running around trying to cleanse [insert random place here] from the horrible [insert random ideology/religion here].
    Last edited by HoreTore; 07-29-2007 at 09:56.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    So it is a hate crime to toss anything into a can that can't be flushed!

    Not very likely now is it. This is pretty mild stuff as far as I can see but I bet it can carry a long stay indoors!


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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Then I must be committing a crime...
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 07-30-2007 at 01:41.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Holy *****!
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 07-30-2007 at 01:44.


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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    I can't be bothered to go and look it up in detail right now, but freedom of speech doesn't extend to every conceivable thing that might be said. There does have to be some sort of message content. IIRC this is one of the things that those entertaining American flag burning cases turn on. What is the message in burning a flag? Or in flushing a Qu'ran?

    Or for that matter in putting a crucifix in urine, and OMG was that really 1989?

    If it makes CR feel any happier, I would agree that either you ought to be allowed to put both a crucifix and a Qu'ran in a urine filled jar, or neither. And I feel the same way about those options as I do about accordian playing, namely, that I think it should be allowed in principle, but I hope everyone would have the decency not to do it in practice.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    I can't be bothered to go and look it up in detail right now, but freedom of speech doesn't extend to every conceivable thing that might be said. There does have to be some sort of message content. IIRC this is one of the things that those entertaining American flag burning cases turn on. What is the message in burning a flag? Or in flushing a Qu'ran?

    Or for that matter in putting a crucifix in urine, and OMG was that really 1989?

    If it makes CR feel any happier, I would agree that either you ought to be allowed to put both a crucifix and a Qu'ran in a urine filled jar, or neither. And I feel the same way about those options as I do about accordian playing, namely, that I think it should be allowed in principle, but I hope everyone would have the decency not to do it in practice.
    I'm always astonished when I see both sense and reason in the backroom... Isn't that supposed to be a frontroom thing?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Actually, isn't that exactly what a double-standard is? Assuming he didn't obtain the books via illegal means, he'll be claiming it was political expression- that is, if his lawyer has an ounce of brains.
    Yes, prosecuting one action and not prosecuting an identical one as long as the perp claims it is art is certainly a double standard. But not the same double standard CR was talking about: the claim that it's okay to piss all over Christianity, but Islam is some sort of "protected" religion as far as the left is concerned.

    Absolute crap, at least as far as this lefty is concerned. I hold Christianity and Islam in equal measures of suspicion, and in fact I probably fear the influence of Islam even more than that of Christianity.

    At any rate, I'm tired of the old "we Christians are so downtrodden" song and dance. You guys have been pretty much in charge of the most powerful country in the world for the better part of the last decade, and all you did was screw everything up. Quit trying to play the victims. It just sounds whiny.
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    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Read the full article. Even if he owned the books this wasn't "artistic expression". It was part of "a spate of vandalism cases with religious or racial overtones at the school."
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    I'm tired of the old "we Christians are so downtrodden" song and dance.
    oh really they have a point though---------- something arty like this wouldn't be allowed in America or Britainhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeDDb5VYwbY then again it ain't about religeon as such , its about fundamentalist nutters .

    Wierd though innit , its getting less protests than Jerry Springer the musical

  17. #17

    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    You have to admire this twist on religeous hatred

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d_q...elated&search=

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    something arty like this wouldn't be allowed in America or Britainhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeDDb5VYwbY
    Absolutely brilliant!
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    oh really they have a point though---------- something arty like this wouldn't be allowed in America or Britainhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeDDb5VYwbY then again it ain't about religeon as such , its about fundamentalist nutters .

    Wierd though innit , its getting less protests than Jerry Springer the musical


    Practically in the same league as "Springtime for Hitler". Thanks for the laugh!
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    oh really they have a point though---------- something arty like this wouldn't be allowed in America or Britainhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeDDb5VYwbY then again it ain't about religeon as such , its about fundamentalist nutters .

    Wierd though innit , its getting less protests than Jerry Springer the musical
    Great stuff , doesn't really have anything to do with religious intolerance or double standards though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    At any rate, I'm tired of the old "we Christians are so downtrodden" song and dance. You guys have been pretty much in charge of the most powerful country in the world for the better part of the last decade, and all you did was screw everything up. Quit trying to play the victims. It just sounds whiny.
    Yup, Christian cabals were running the world...
    Last edited by Xiahou; 07-30-2007 at 19:01.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Yup, Christian cabals were running the world...
    I didn't say the world, I said the U.S.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    I didn't say the world, I said the U.S.
    Oh, sorry.

    Yup, Christian cabals were running the world US...
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Yup, Christian cabals were running the world US...
    Ha!

    I knew it!

    You're not a Mason too, by any chance, are you?
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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    You're not a Mason too, by any chance, are you?
    Goofball, would that make you mortarfied if he was? Or would you then stone him?

    As to the original topic, I find it absurd that one can piss on a religious icon, snap a picture of it, and convince some one it is "art" to hang in a gallery for hundreds or thousands to see and then get away with it. Meanwhile, another tosses a religious icon into a toilet where maybe a dozen people see it and they get nabbed. Of course the differences are: 1) 1989 vs 2006; 2) California vs New York; and 3) a crackdown on other related incidents. I guess timing is everything.
    This space intentionally left blank

  25. #25

    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Great stuff , doesn't really have anything to do with religious intolerance or double standards though.
    Ah but it does though , if this double standard that Rabbit imagines really did exist then the pink burquad religeous terrorists chorus line would be banned from broadway for insulting Islam .
    But as I said ......
    Wierd though innit , its getting less protests than Jerry Springer the musical
    But anyway , no takers on the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d_q...elated&search= ? I am sure Shades who would have undoubtably celebrated his cultural heritage earlier in the month could inform people what the letters KAT at the bonfires mean .


    Double standards......bollox....the only double standards are the narrow minded ********who moan that others are applying double standards because they are contrary to their own double standards .

  26. #26
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Ah but it does though , if this double standard that Rabbit imagines really did exist then the pink burquad religeous terrorists chorus line would be banned from broadway for insulting Islam.
    I thought it was humour directed at Osama bin Laden, not Islam.
    This space intentionally left blank

  27. #27

    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    I thought it was humour directed at Osama bin Laden, not Islam.
    Yeah and is this about fashion and coloured cloth
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Yk...elated&search=



    Its about the false concepts of jihad and Islamic militancy that are peddled perhaps more than one song from the musical is needed to show that

  28. #28
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Yes, prosecuting one action and not prosecuting an identical one as long as the perp claims it is art is certainly a double standard. But not the same double standard CR was talking about: the claim that it's okay to piss all over Christianity, but Islam is some sort of "protected" religion as far as the left is concerned.

    Absolute crap, at least as far as this lefty is concerned. I hold Christianity and Islam in equal measures of suspicion, and in fact I probably fear the influence of Islam even more than that of Christianity.

    At any rate, I'm tired of the old "we Christians are so downtrodden" song and dance. You guys have been pretty much in charge of the most powerful country in the world for the better part of the last decade, and all you did was screw everything up. Quit trying to play the victims. It just sounds whiny.
    Perhaps I should have been even more clear that I was talking about academic lefties (think college ethnic studies professors) . In the US at least, there are many examples of a double standard, particularly in colleges. Like, you can burn US flags all you want but you can get in trouble with the administration of a college if you burn a Hamas flag because it had Allah in Arabic on it.

    Now, most people don't support such a double standard, but a lot of leftists intelligentsia do - because they view Christianity as the bad oppressive religion, a view straight from Marx and the French Revolution, and Islam as the oppressed minority.

    And where did I say I was downtrodden?

    Ah but it does though , if this double standard that Rabbit imagines really did exist then the pink burquad religeous terrorists chorus line would be banned from broadway for insulting Islam .
    Oh, right, because I said it was a all encompassing standard without any exceptions whatsoever, not that it was some lefties in academia.

    I pretty much agree with all that you said, EA.

    CR
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  29. #29
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Yeah and is this about fashion and coloured cloth
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Yk...elated&search=
    I'll take your word about the fashion and coloured cloth theme as I couldn't make out a word being sung.
    This space intentionally left blank

  30. #30
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Standards, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregoshi
    I'll take your word about the fashion and coloured cloth theme as I couldn't make out a word being sung.
    I wasn't alone then.
    I almost got the impression that it was about how not to film such a show.

    Concerning the double standards, they probably exist in some people, but there are other double standards as well which exist in people, but I'm not leaving my leftist academia college thingie because of that.


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