Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Best Anti Mongol stack

  1. #1

    Default Best Anti Mongol stack

    As u probably can understand from the title this thread is about your best stack used against the Mongols.
    Please post only one stack write which faction, and feel free to put and image of it in formation.

    Well let me begin:
    Turks
    1 Bodyguard
    1/2 Naffatun
    9 Dismounted siphi lancers
    5/6 Ottoman infantry


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  2. #2
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,306

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Turks: General,
    4 Archers/Muskeeters,
    2-3 Janissary Infantry,
    4-5 Dismounted Lancers,
    1-2 naffatun.

    With the turks, I always organized defense on the first wall.

    Janissary infantry is ideal to be put on the wall to deal with mongol infantry that tries to get up. Just put them up there and forget about enemy ladders and towers. Use archers to shower mongols with arrows (at first normal, later flaming), just be careful not to spend all their ammo at the beggings. Save samo for that critical fire salvo that will rout the enemy.

    Lancer I put in front of the gate, minus 1 or 2 that are in reserve behind the next perimeter of defense.

    Naffatun are critical for this strategy. Even on huge unit size, their small number allow them to be places on the wall right on top of the gate. That means they are safe from the enemy ladders and towers, and also relatively safe from enemy archers. Turn off fire at will, and wait for the mongol general to come close. When the mongols break the gate, they will all run to it. Use your lancers to pin them there. Of course they won't hold against mongols but they will buy you some time. When you see that the mongol general is in range of naffatun, order them to shoot at him. In 5 out of 5 battles naffatun killed the guy.After that the rest of the mongol army is easy to defeat. If that doesn't happen, and your forces get overwhelmed by the mongols, move everyone on to the next perimeter. Sacrifice one or two lancers to buy time for the rest, and then repeat the process with the second unit of naffatun on top of the second gate. Strategy always worked for me..

  3. #3

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Though I'm guessing it would be similar, what about armies for field battles?

  4. #4
    Amazing Mothman Member icek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Who really fights mongols in open fields?

  5. #5
    Rout Meister Member KyodaiSteeleye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Potton, near Sandy, the centre of the unknown universe
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Egypt:

    An all cav army - mix of the best HA/arab/heavy cav - may lose half your army, but you will beat them
    KyodaiSpan, KyodaiSteeleye, PFJ_Span, Bohemund. Learn to recognise psychopaths

  6. #6
    Amazing Mothman Member icek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    yeah, one army, too pyrrus to call the best you know
    Last edited by icek; 07-29-2007 at 19:06.

  7. #7
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,306

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Quote Originally Posted by icek
    Who really fights mongols in open fields?
    Someone with a death wish?


    I did it only in the mountains where their cavalry isn't that effective... Control the high ground, have some experienced units of artillery and that's pretty much it.

    Fighting the mongols in open fields is somewhat impossible, unless you have a great general (7+ stars) and experienced army, but your loses would still be great...

  8. #8
    Member Member Zarky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    381

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    I actually once met mongol army with only few archers, i boxed up my Scottish army in open field, There was hill nearby an i placed my Templar knights there. I did the boxing with pikemen, had 8 of them and i had 4 lines deep formation in side where their cavalry would charge. They left their few archers behind charging cavalry after i had suffered few losses to my pikemen line (Noble pikemen <3) Templars charged the archers and their general was eventually slain by pikes. But then i got owned by reinforce army with their Khan in it...
    I didn&#180;t put my army to that hill because it was relatively small and i wanted them to waste their cavalry in my pikes.
    Had couple same like battles and before they reached my cities i had caused about 50% losses to their troops and killed lots of generals and 1 khan.
    Last edited by Zarky; 07-29-2007 at 20:02.
    Homo Sapiens non Urinat in Ventum - the wise man does not piss against the wind.

  9. #9
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,701

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    As England (Or any faction with archer stakes really) I prefer to face the Mongols in the field. Bring a stack with only Yeoman or Retinue Longbowmen and a general with night fighter to split stacks. Construct a stake fort on the high ground, turn off skirmish for your men, and turn on guard for your general and leave him sitting behind the line, to shore up morale. Unless you get the passive AI reinforcements bug, the Mongols will almost certainly come to you.

    The enemy lancers and bodyguards are useless, dead meat on a hoof. You outnumber his archers, and his infantry will be scattered and easily broken when they try to charge through the stake line. When they flee, your arrows will go in their backs. If you're fighting 2 or more stacks position your stake fort so that you have a protected position to withdraw when you run out of arrows.

    Don't try this against the Timurids unless you've already picked off all their artillery, or you can field superior artillery yourself.

  10. #10
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    25,559

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Quote Originally Posted by icek
    Who really fights mongols in open fields?
    Ramses and I do. Check out my England and anti-Mongol threads. It's more effective that way. I've never lost a battle to the Mongols.

    I personally consider seiges to be heavily favored to the attackers. If the AI weren't stupid, you'd be killed. I even allow enemies to take a city if I cannot defend it, then use my garrison to trap them inside the city and force them to sally.

    I destroy them easily even with half as many forces.

    I routinely take settlements with equal army size/quality. This helps out on The Long Road.
    Most of your initial battles are seiges with superior garrisons, and you MUST win. Archers/artillery are your friends. So are massive amounts of seige towers and 2 rams.

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88887 Anti-Mongol thread.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87236 England (see last page or so) here is where I use the Anti-Mongol tactic in practice.

    So there are other options besides seiges.
    Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 07-30-2007 at 02:53.
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

  11. #11
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cometh the hour, Cometh the Caliph
    Posts
    4,859

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Quote Originally Posted by icek
    Who really fights mongols in open fields?
    Quote Originally Posted by askthepizzaguy
    Ramses and I do. .
    and me!

    like this:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79195

    kudos to GuyofJerusalem for that one...
    frogbeastegg's TWS2 guide....it's here!

    Come to the Throne Room to play multiplayer hotseat campaigns and RPGs in M2TW.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses II CP
    As England (Or any faction with archer stakes really) I prefer to face the Mongols in the field. Bring a stack with only Yeoman or Retinue Longbowmen and a general with night fighter to split stacks. Construct a stake fort on the high ground, turn off skirmish for your men, and turn on guard for your general and leave him sitting behind the line, to shore up morale. Unless you get the passive AI reinforcements bug, the Mongols will almost certainly come to you.

    The enemy lancers and bodyguards are useless, dead meat on a hoof. You outnumber his archers, and his infantry will be scattered and easily broken when they try to charge through the stake line. When they flee, your arrows will go in their backs. If you're fighting 2 or more stacks position your stake fort so that you have a protected position to withdraw when you run out of arrows.

    Don't try this against the Timurids unless you've already picked off all their artillery, or you can field superior artillery yourself.
    I vaguely remember Jannisary Archers having stakes as well so I'm guessing that would work with the turks. Also with lithuanian archers which also have stakes though I'm not sure if they're good enough to beat the mongols in archery.

  13. #13
    Join the ICLADOLLABOJADALLA! Member IrishArmenian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Writing the book, every day...
    Posts
    1,986

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    I don't remember the specifics, but for Russia (in a siege) I like to have:
    -General
    -4 to 7 Dismounted Dvor
    -2 Druzinha (suicide attacks on their siege weapons)
    -2 Boyar's Sons (the same)
    -The rest? Hopefully Cossack Musketeers if available, or spearmen.

    "Half of your brain is that of a ten year old and the other half is that of a ten year old that chainsmokes and drinks his liver dead!" --Hagop Beegan

  14. #14

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    I've got to figure out how to post a screen shot.
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  15. #15
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    25,559

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Beard
    I've got to figure out how to post a screen shot.
    When you use the Print Screen button (default setting) you save the current image of your M2TW game. This image is saved as a .tga file.

    A free, easy to download piece of software called Ifranview allows you to open .tga files and save them AS .jpegs and other files.

    You can upload non-tga files onto websites like photobucket.com, and post the links in this forum using [IMG ] (hyperlink to image here) [ /IMG] (no spaces).

    At least I am pretty sure that you'd need to convert the .tgas.

    One more piece of advice... shrink the SIZE of the image (using Ifranview or right on Photobucket itself) and HIDE the image behind spoilers [SPOIL ] (your hidden content here) [ /SPOIL] (no spaces) So that people with slow internet connections can read your thread without forever loading times. It also makes the thread look nice and neat.
    Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 07-31-2007 at 01:46.
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

  16. #16
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Hastings, UK
    Posts
    767

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    As spain i use 2 types of stack. One is a cheap and easily mass produced attrition stack, used to wear down the huge mongol stacks into something more manageable, and the other is a 'proper' stack used to take out the depleted mongol stacks.

    'attrition' stack
    10 spear militia, kept in schiltrom formation
    6 crossbow militia
    2 heavy cav
    2 catapults

    Try to find a nice hill to place your xbows and catapults on. Create a line of spears in schiltrom formation further down the hill, where they wont get in the way of your xbows. If the mongols dont come to you (rare) then tempt them by either sacrificing a spear unit, or by sending out some cav (but try to make sure they get back in one piece).

    The spear militia are there purely to hold the line while the xbows and catapults inflict as much damage as possible on the mongol heavy lancers and horse archers. The 2 heavy cav are there to perform hit and run on any exposed mongol foot archers, and to try to hold off any lancers that sneak through gaps between the spearmen (there will be huge gaps since the spears are in schiltrom, but in general the lancers go for the spears first rather than sneak past). The point of this stack is to lose, but to inflict significant (hopefull 50%) damage on the enemy stack while doing so. Try to pull your xbows and catas out just before the spears rout.

    The whole point of the attrition stack is that you can turn out a whole stack pretty much every turn from the tightly packed cities around the jerusalem area, so it doesnt matter how many men you lose, you can replace them quickly, whereas every mongol heavy lancer you take out is one that's never coming back (assuming you havent let the mongols build an empire yet).

    'extermination' stack
    4 mounted xbows
    6 heavy cav (incl. general)
    5 pavise xbows
    5 dis. chiv knights

    Use this stack to eliminate depleted mongol stacks.
    use mounted xbows to thin out whats left of the heavy lancers
    use heavy cav to take out enemy arty and mongol foot archers
    use pav xbows to outshoot mongol HAs with dis.knights for protection.
    Last edited by Daveybaby; 07-31-2007 at 10:36.

  17. #17
    WoT fanatic Member 4th Dimension's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Yugoslavia, Montenegro
    Posts
    329

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishArmenian
    I don't remember the specifics, but for Russia (in a siege) I like to have:
    -General
    -4 to 7 Dismounted Dvor
    -2 Druzinha (suicide attacks on their siege weapons)
    -2 Boyar's Sons (the same)
    -The rest? Hopefully Cossack Musketeers if available, or spearmen.
    There is nothing in that stack that can efectivly stop Mongol calivary. Even in a settlement they will pull of a charge and will anhiliate your troops.

    I suggest couple of spearmen from forts. Last time I checked their stats were like stats of armoured sargents.

    Also no need for Boyar sons dismounted and Druzina. Both dismounted units have excatly same stats.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    There is no stopping the Mongols! As Egypt, in a large city:

    I had 7 spearmen/ light infantry
    7 archer
    3 calvary
    1 general

    They broke through the gates and with their heavy calvary and crushed everyone in their path.

    Vh/h

  19. #19
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,828

    Question Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian
    Turks: General,
    4 Archers/Muskeeters,
    2-3 Janissary Infantry,
    4-5 Dismounted Lancers,
    1-2 naffatun.

    With the turks, I always organized defense on the first wall.

    Janissary infantry is ideal to be put on the wall to deal with mongol infantry that tries to get up. Just put them up there and forget about enemy ladders and towers. Use archers to shower mongols with arrows (at first normal, later flaming), just be careful not to spend all their ammo at the beggings. Save samo for that critical fire salvo that will rout the enemy..
    hmm... isn't vanilla (not modded) janissary heavy infantry a bit weak in defense for putting them on walls? their attack isn't that great either. they shine in charge, but they cannot use that on the walls.

  20. #20
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    25,559

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite7
    There is no stopping the Mongols! As Egypt, in a large city:

    I had 7 spearmen/ light infantry
    7 archer
    3 calvary
    1 general

    They broke through the gates and with their heavy calvary and crushed everyone in their path.

    Vh/h


    Must... bite... tongue...

    light infantry/archers? Versus the Mongols or the Timurids... I'd go with something heavier. I also probably wouldn't confine myself inside a city. The lack of maneuverability and the even footing make for a bad fight. The walls look pretty tall, but the ground is all that matters. And they have some nice tall horses to trample you with.

    They can push through your infantry with sheer weight and numbers, so you can't try to block off the gate. That's suicide.

    I must admit, however, man-for-man the Mongols and the Timurids will probably beat you anyway. So you need to have reinforcements. I recommend two stacks for every one they bring. Put them on defense, surround and pound.

    Unless you have freaking fantastic armored troops, your fight against the Mongols will be won on the campaign map, not on the battlefield. Divide, isolate, surround, pound, conquer. That or cower inside walls until they beat you anyway. If you're going for one stack versus one stack, you should still have an open battlefield to maneuver in. Some people are good at street fighting, but most people will have better luck on the open field.

    *I'm aware of fort trapping. That's a bit too cheap even for me.
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

  21. #21

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Yes, ideally I would have heavy-infantry. But I'm playing as Egypt. And they have only one unit of heavy infantry, that you get practically at the end of the game. They also are completely lacking in heavy calvary. Only one (or two) units of that. They are very light-armor type faction. On top of all that, the Mongols invaded just as I finished my conquest of Turkey and Byzantium, so I had to mass-produce armies quickly.

    I tried what you recommended above, however, the divide and conquer thing. I managed to get the khan's army in a mountain pass (they came in through Turkey) and with 3 stacks (main one as pure calvary, two mixed) I attacked.

    And what happens? Reinforcements delayed!

    I think as Egypt it might be better to ignore or make peace with the Mongols. After 7 turns of ceasefire breaking, they eventually stopped bothering me and headed off to Russia, leaving several stacks around my cities. Maybe the Timurids will kill them off.

    I gave up on that campaign, planning to play as Poland. Wish me luck.
    Last edited by Hoplite7; 07-31-2007 at 21:24.

  22. #22
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    25,559

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Serving up another slice of opinion. It's vaguely on-topic, but I don't want to clog up too much of the thread.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite7
    Yes, ideally I would have heavy-infantry. But I'm playing as Egypt. And they have only one unit of heavy infantry, that you get practically at the end of the game. They also are completely lacking in heavy calvary. Only one (or two) units of that. They are very light-armor type faction. On top of all that, the Mongols invaded just as I finished my conquest of Turkey and Byzantium, so I had to mass-produce armies quickly.

    I tried what you recommended above, however, the divide and conquer thing. I managed to get the khan's army in a mountain pass (they came in through Turkey) and with 3 stacks (main one as pure calvary, two mixed) I attacked.

    And what happens? Reinforcements delayed!

    I think as Egypt it might be better to ignore or make peace with the Mongols. After 7 turns of ceasefire breaking, they eventually stopped bothering me and headed off to Russia, leaving several stacks around my cities. Maybe the Timurids will kill them off.

    I gave up on that campaign, planning to play as Poland. Wish me luck.
    You got them in a mountain pass in Turkey? And you had reinforcements?

    At the risk of being forward, that sounds like it would have been a better defensive situation than an offensive one. You can block much or all of the path forward in those mountains, and force a confrontation on the side of a hill where those heavy cavalry will be at a disadvantage and your archers/spearmen will pwn all.

    You could have probably held off several stacks there.

    Once they get at your cities, you either need supremely superior firepower, massive troop levels, or you get your nether regions handed to you. With Egypt, and without heavy infantry, you have to improvise. Level ground battles with even numbers is pretty much suicide, in town or on the field. Height advantage or number advantage are your two best options.

    I wouldn't make peace with them unless it is a delaying tactic. I try not to be passive, because the ONLY reason a passive tactic works is because the AI doesn't know anything about initiative. If these were humans, we'd be toast by playing passive. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

    Poland should be fine. Their initial troops are weak but they get pretty powerful later on. You can probably go with mostly cavalry and woodsmen armies there. Ranged horsemen plus melee horsemen, a general, and lots of cheap disposable infantry.


    edit: 400th post.
    Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 07-31-2007 at 23:37.
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

  23. #23
    Member Member todorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    au
    Posts
    175

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    For a field battle

    After a lot of experimenting I found the best for my style Mongol/Timirud solution. 100% cavalry, the heavier the better. All Cavalry in close wedge formations far left or right on the wing. Charge the opposite Mongol wing and then through all Mongol army I charge the opposite wing. The key is not to get stuck in static fighting. Keep attacking the next unit. Once all Mongols are routed I chase them individually.

    If I attack 4 stacks with 1 stack, I manage to completely destroy the first stack and inflict heavy losses on the next stack. I retreat before loosing units. I split and send my stack to refit in the nearest castles. After each battle my troops gain one or two chevrons. In time my generals gets 8-9 stars and all the units become super 3 gold chevrons. This stack rolls up everything in front of it.

    The Mongols win, but loose about 2 stacks against my heavy depleted, but not lost, stack. It's a good deal.

    For a city or a castle defence

    I have 12 of my faction best ranged units on the walls and 8 armoured sergeants in schiltrom formations on the square. The Mongols win at the end, but they loose about 3 stacks out of 4, which is a very good deal.

  24. #24
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Hastings, UK
    Posts
    767

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite7
    Yes, ideally I would have heavy-infantry. But I'm playing as Egypt. And they have only one unit of heavy infantry, that you get practically at the end of the game. They also are completely lacking in heavy calvary. Only one (or two) units of that. They are very light-armor type faction. On top of all that, the Mongols invaded just as I finished my conquest of Turkey and Byzantium, so I had to mass-produce armies quickly.
    Meat waves. Dont focus on winning every battle, focus on mass producing troops and wearing down their stacks through a battle of attrition.

    Use naffatun to kill enemy generals.

    Also: horsies are scared of camels. I'm sure there's some way to use that.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    If you look at the late game rosters of the Russians and the Turks, I think you can brute force the Mongols. Dvor + Tsar's Guard as well as Qapukulu + Sipahi should be a match for their best cavalry.

  26. #26
    WoT fanatic Member 4th Dimension's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Yugoslavia, Montenegro
    Posts
    329

    Default Re: Best Anti Mongol stack

    Dvor aren't fast enough and don't have enough stamina for traditional HA, so I suggest some Crosaks calivary for pepering the enemy.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO