weird crusade targets

[icek]

Im at 98 turn, there was three crusades already. christians have antioch, akka, allepo, damashek, jerusalem, this hole on desert on east-south corner and trypolis. I have 7 points in papal rating and pope is my countryfolk, but i cant target muslim factions for crusades anymore. In pope's hot list are hungary, milanese and moor's cordoba but he allow me to launch it for constantinople and sofia only. I understand he protect moor's as papal allies but turkey and egiptians? Can somebody explain what happening? i wanna so much to meet as crusader.

[Zarky]

Well if there´s lots of excommunicated factions pope wants important cities to be taken from them before send more men to middle-east

[icek]

ok, but why he target Cordoba as the most important muslim city to liberate, when Moors are papal's ally and they have sardinia's cagliari that pose a threat to rome and europe even more. A little other question: are those cities in, lets call it, crusade target's browser sorted by importance? I ask because sofia nad istambul are at top :)

[Zarky]

I don´t know if there´s any meaning behind that some city is at the top of crusade list, But as you said Moors are threat to Europe, that´s why their capital should be captured by noble christians so that his holiness the pope and lift his holy middle finger to the moors at his borders...
and Cagliari isn´t a threat to Rome until turn 200 in earliest change, the forces still come from Northern Africa and Southern Spain.
I think crusade targets (other than holy lands) are capital and other important cities, big or so on.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think it makes perfect sense that the Pope would want Catholic lands to be made loyal to the Pope before more land is taken from the Muslims.

As for the Moors, it also makes sense. They had encroached onto Christian land, and deserve to be pushed out of it. Thier capital, Cordoba, is half Christian!

[ReiseReise]

Some regions seem to be coded to be crusade targets, they are always on the list and the Pope is more likely to approve your request. Jerusalem, for obvious reasons, Antioch was important in the founding of Christianity by Paul and others, and Cordoba as part of the Reconquista. When a faction gets excommunicated the Pope likes to put the hurt on them.
I found a very effective strategy playing as Venice, I allied with the Pope and let Milan attack me. Since I was allied with the Pope, Milan lost about 4 pope-o-meter points immediately and was excommunicated the next time they attacked me, I then launched a Crusade to Milan, put most of my family members in it and they got all the good Crusader traits in about 3 turns. I almost instantly had 4 generals with 6-8 Chivalry and piety (GREAT governors), and 4-6 stars each, with none of that long voyage to the Holy Land stuff to worry about.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Some regions seem to be coded to be crusade targets, they are always on the list and the Pope is more likely to approve your request. Jerusalem, for obvious reasons, Antioch was important in the founding of Christianity by Paul and others, and Cordoba as part of the Reconquista. When a faction gets excommunicated the Pope likes to put the hurt on them.
I found a very effective strategy playing as Venice, I allied with the Pope and let Milan attack me. Since I was allied with the Pope, Milan lost about 4 pope-o-meter points immediately and was excommunicated the next time they attacked me, I then launched a Crusade to Milan, put most of my family members in it and they got all the good Crusader traits in about 3 turns. I almost instantly had 4 generals with 6-8 Chivalry and piety (GREAT governors), and 4-6 stars each, with none of that long voyage to the Holy Land stuff to worry about.

An excellent tactic I frequently use!

[icek]

I suprise you ReiseReise but when i launched my first crusade to antioch i didnt have jerusalem in targets list and jerusalem was in rebel's hands. But i got the picture, shame i must attack egipt without popy special favor.

[ReiseReise]

Interesting, how can Jerusalem, the Holiest of the Holy, THE target of the Crusades, not be on the list?

[ataribaby]

It says in the manual that the Old Man gives preference to targets that already have a significant Catholic population - he likes using crusades to liberate his oppressed flock. Usually old Cardinal Domingo of Spain and the starting Cardinal of Portugal usually set up conversion-camp outside Cordoba until they die, which would explain why Cordoba stays high on the hit list.

If there's a Muslim stronghold region like Jerusalem that you want to take over by crusade then I'd send three or more priests to convert the population to above a third Catholic (I'm not sure the exact proportion, but the higher the better). It'll take a few turns but you should eventually find it back on Popey's hit list. Usually Egypt bags it early, but unless rebel held Jerusalem gets an early crusade the population tends to get turned to a Muslim majority because of all the surrounding Muslim regions (Islam and Orthodox Christianty seem to be twice as contagious as Catholicism so Catholic minortities tend to disappear quickly in the Middle East).

[Zasz1234]

(Islam and Orthodox Christianty seem to be twice as contagious as Catholicism so Catholic minortities tend to disappear quickly in the Middle East).

interesting idea ATPG. Do the different religions have different base conversion rates?

[Askthepizzaguy]

interesting idea ATPG. Do the different religions have different base conversion rates?

Actually, that's not Askthepizzaguy. But I CAN give you the skinny on what the conversion rates are all about.

Ever wonder why as the Byzantines it only takes one Cardinal to truly mess up your religious Orthodoxy in Constantinople? It seems like every single turn you lose more Orthodox than you can re-convert with a Bishop of your own.

Here's why.

The MORE a region contains your particular religion, the LESS % you can re-convert per turn. That means that Heretic roaming through your land has a serious advantage. Kill him quickly.

It does NOT matter which religion you are. High levels of heresy, for example, in a given province can be EASILY converted away. But low levels of heresy never seem to go away, do they?

It's all about the percentages. Low percentage means low susceptibility to conversion. High percentage means high susceptibility to conversion.

That's the real deal, from the REAL pizza guy. Accept no imitations.

[icek]

its the power of percentage. It works like gravity magic in final fantasy games, you just waste your mana of tiny weak enemies but you can hurt really badly guys with huge health points.

[ataribaby]

Do the different religions have different base conversion rates?

What I was thinking was the conversion bonuses of Muslim or Orthodox Christian buildings of worship tend to be double that of the equivalent Catholic building. I've got a sneaking suspicion that Imams and Orthodox priests are more potent too (but I couldn't be sure).

What would be great would be a conversion barometer on a settlement's information scroll, just like RTW:Barbarian Invasion. In BI you could tell how much the population would convert to a different religion on the next turn based on religious buildings, resident characters and the influence of surrounding providences.

[icek]

for e.g. muslim castle can build religious builing with 5% convertion and christian only 3%

[joe4iz]

When playing as any Catholic faction, I almost always take Antioch as the first or second Crusade. I then give it to the Pope, who will lose it to one of the other Muslim factions in the area. This generally will keep him from allying with those factions. No real Pope would have ever allied with any Muslim faction. I actually crusaded for Antioch several times before , each time I would give it back to the Pope. Since all of the Muslim factions seem to be hardwired to take it back, this cuts down on him allying with those groups.

[icek]

i never seen pope in alliance with some other muslim faction than moors. giving cities and later obtaining it back like you must do for jerusalem will get you a mayor reputation drop.

[sapi]

Actually, that's not Askthepizzaguy. But I CAN give you the skinny on what the conversion rates are all about.

Ever wonder why as the Byzantines it only takes one Cardinal to truly mess up your religious Orthodoxy in Constantinople? It seems like every single turn you lose more Orthodox than you can re-convert with a Bishop of your own.

Here's why.

The MORE a region contains your particular religion, the LESS % you can re-convert per turn. That means that Heretic roaming through your land has a serious advantage. Kill him quickly.

It does NOT matter which religion you are. High levels of heresy, for example, in a given province can be EASILY converted away. But low levels of heresy never seem to go away, do they?

It's all about the percentages. Low percentage means low susceptibility to conversion. High percentage means high susceptibility to conversion.

That's the real deal, from the REAL pizza guy. Accept no imitations.

To expand, the game converts a set % of the population not of your religion per piety point per priest per turn.

That means that a heritic with an arbitary value of 10% as his conversion rate, in a 10k population province with 95% catholic 5% orthodox, is converting (.10*9500 = 950 people or 9.5%) of the population each turn, whereas a priest with an equal conversion rate is only converting (.10*500 = 50 people or .5%).

[joe4iz]

i never seen pope in alliance with some other muslim faction than moors. giving cities and later obtaining it back like you must do for jerusalem will get you a mayor reputation drop.

Sorry if I seem to misled you. I never give him Jeruselum, I give him Antioch. I have retaken and returned it to him several times. This boosts your rep instead of decreasing it. I have had him ally with both the Mongols and Eygpt in my various games. Giving him Antioch will definately put him at odds with the Monguls as they always make a beeline for it.

[Captain Pugwash]

I had a situation where the rebel/turkish towns were targetable on the drop down list but not all of them. They where all in the middle east. Allepo (reb) was not on the list as well as the place opposite constantinople (turks). I could nt understand why. It did not matter anyway as the pope wouldnt authorise a crusade anyhow to anywhere. Then Scotland got excomed and bang its off to Edinborough, i think not and no one took part

[Zarky]

for e.g. muslim castle can build religious builing with 5% convertion and christian only 3%

It´s because Muslims have to pray Allah 4 times a day (i think) facing at Mecca, but no one tells Christian that you have to pray.
I see Muslims more as a single nation, even today they have the same common rules, Pray, don´t drink and rest i don´t know .

[icek]

I think is because muslim have only one type of preacher agents, when catholic have 3 (priest, bishop, cardinal).

[Zasz1234]

That's the real deal, from the REAL pizza guy. Accept no imitations.

Sorry for the confusion, I saw an 'A' in the name and that almost same helmet guy and became confused.

But it is strange the comparable muslim buildings have higher conversion. Maybe as a balance to the fact that there are many more Catholic factions and Muslim? Don't know if someone said already, but do all churches have the same conversion regardless of Orthodox or Catholic? Seems like the Orthodox churches should share the higher conversion rate.

[ataribaby]

It´s because Muslims have to pray Allah 4 times a day (i think) facing at Mecca, but no one tells Christian that you have to pray.
I see Muslims more as a single nation, even today they have the same common rules, Pray, don´t drink and rest i don´t know

a) It's 5 times, b) Catholic Christians have to pray (Mass/Confessional anyone?), c) as for the single nation, that's the idea... look up ummah in Wikipedia

I saw an 'A' in the name and that almost same helmet guy and became confused.

I've taken my helmet off to avoid confusion.

do all churches have the same conversion regardless of Orthodox or Catholic? Seems like the Orthodox churches should share the higher conversion rate.

They do - I think they have the same conversion bonuses. And having played a Russian and a a Moorish campaign, Orthodox and Muslim preachers are definitely more potent, and thus gain piety quicker (thus becoming even more potent!). It's alot quicker for Orthodox Christian and Muslim factions to convert Catholics.

[Eng]

It has nothing to do with religion, I mean the targets.
For example I had antioch as turks and a crusade was sent against it when I had 98-100 percent muslim and the pope will even send crusades against catholic if there in bad standing with him

[Askthepizzaguy]

It has nothing to do with religion, I mean the targets.
For example I had antioch as turks and a crusade was sent against it when I had 98-100 percent muslim and the pope will even send crusades against catholic if there in bad standing with him

I think it has something to do with religion, priority-wise. The Pope is very likely to have excommunicated Catholic factions on his listy list. The are a priority because they are predominantly Catholic, being ruled by an apparenly non-Catholic regime (any excommunicated leader is treated as a non-Catholic whether he considers himself one or not).

Next on the list is Muslim regions. The Pope hates Muslims. Not so much Orthodox Christians. It's interesting, I've never seen the Pope call for a crusade against Russia or orthodox-held Constantinople, when in reality, the great schism resulted from a Crusade against orthodox Constantinople. (I believe... feel free to correct me)

Sometimes the pope also includes rebel-held territories which have Christian populations. Stettin, for example, is not Catholic, it is Pagan, and I never see Stettin on the list. The Catholic/Orthodox rebel regions like Riga appear on the list, as well as Tunis, which is mostly Muslim if I recall, but contains christians.

There is something to do with religion, clearly. I wish I knew how it worked.

Jihads also puzzle me. Almost none of the Christian regions appear on the list. Orthodox regions appear, but it's mostly rebel-held Islamic regions.

Jihads simply don't happen as far as I can tell unless the target has some Muslim population. The larger, the better, so long as it is not controlled by an Islamic sect.

[ReiseReise]

The Great Schism was a result of a power battle between the Patriarchs of the church, being based in Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria. They were supposed to be "first among equals", however Jerusalem and Alexandria were under Muslim control, and Antioch was the front line between Byzantines and Turks, so Constantinople and Rome were really the only 2 with power. Rome claimed primacy on some matters (such as appending "and the Son" to "We believe in the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father." in the Nicene Creed ), and a few other issues caused them to break part. I don't think there was much blood until the sack of Constantinople during the 4th Crusade in 1204.

[ReiseReise]

Brainfart. Edit: "Rome was first among equals"

[Zasz1234]

mmm, Jihads need some help compared to crusades I feel. Jihads seem to rarely happen save for the one at the beginning against Baghdad, and whereas crusades get plenty of cheap high quality mercs Jihads get some fanatics at best (coming from experience with Jihads as Moors).