Smaller Armys

[Tomisama]

Yesterday in a 2v3 game the 3 player side shared 18k, playing with 6k each.

I actually found it to be enjoyable (less to keep track of), and thought that possibly the lag experienced in our 4v4 might be helped if we took smaller armys?

[CBR]

The lag was most likely caused by connection problems. They seemed to be gone when I started hosting yesterday as Yuuki might have had some problems (he dropped from TS a couple of times too)

Control is easy Tomi. Use reserves instead of bunching up in one big pile Oh and flank flank flank!


CBR

[TosaInu]

Hello,

Yes, but there may have been another issue too. Not quite sure how that could have affected all of us. I think my machine caused a lot of trouble and made an already suboptimal situation impossible, sorry.

My Soundblaster card causes some static and thus I enabled the onboard one. That worked fine in a 4v4 custom and 2v1 MP worked too, but it caused (?) a lot of PC lag in 3v3 and 4v4. That was fixed after disabling onboard sound and rebooting, also when Yuuki hosted.

[Puzz3D]

We actually made an error in setting up that 2v3. The side with 3 should have been limited to not more than 11 units each. It was an oversight.

As much as possible, I think players should strive to control units individually. I would suggest using the minimum number of units that you judge necessary to carry out a particular task, and leave the rest as reserves as CBR suggests. Also, use combined arms. A YS + ND pair are much more effective than 2 YS or 2 ND. In Samurai Wars, the units have been given enough morale to carry out their intended task, but since we don't use upgrades individual matchups are more important because the combat differences aren't reduced by upgrading the weaker units. For instance, YS and ND were usually upgraded in STW and could stand up quite well to WM. In Samurai Wars, getting a YS matched against a WM is not good and an ND will get creamed by NC and loose to YC. Even a WM is no match for HC.

Another consideration is attrition of the enemy in team games. You don't have to go for broke in an all out win or loose effort against your individual opponent. If you are able to inflict 600 kills before being eliminated, that will give your ally(s) a reasonable chance of winning the game. For instance, in a 2v2 the total men per side is usually around 1800. If you take out 600 enemies, your ally can probably win by achieving 900 to 1000 kills which is doable. However, if you only take out 300 enemies, your ally will need at least 1200 kills to win which I've only seen done once in a Samurai Wars 2v2 with 60 man unit size.

Sunday there were a couple of players who's machines couldn't handle 4v4. Everyone's time would be better spend making two 2v2 games rather than one 4v4.

[CBR]

We actually made an error in setting up that 2v3. The side with 3 should have been limited to not more than 11 units each. It was an oversight.

It was no oversight on my part as I dont mind the side with more players take whatever units they want. It becomes a question of quality v quantity and more asymmetrical which makes for different battles.

You had a total of 41 units v our 32 and of course had more low quality units to make up for that.

I think we could have won, but we did not kill off Tomi as he had several strong units to the rear which ruined a couple of my pursuing YC. Masamune and I also got a bit seperated which meant I had a few strong unit not engaging fast enough against you.

But an enjoyable game nonetheless.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

It was no oversight on my part as I dont mind the side with more players take whatever units they want. It becomes a question of quality v quantity and more asymmetrical which makes for different battles.

You had a total of 41 units v our 32 and of course had more low quality units to make up for that.

The 3 attackers fielded 14 gun units costing 3200 and got 470 kills with them. The 2 defenders fielded 9 gun units costing 2100 and got 219 kills with them. Since the attackers were able to generate twice as many kills with the guns for 1.5x the money, it worked to their advantage, and it forced the defenders to attack. I think this might be a typical outcome for 14 guns vs 9 guns. Of course, if it had rained or the battle was in trees the extra money spent on guns would have been wasted.

[TosaInu]

We actually made an error in setting up that 2v3. The side with 3 should have been limited to not more than 11 units each. It was an oversight.

More vs less is not a fought battle. The three armies wouldn't do well if the two are in the woods. The three wouldn't have enough hth (hand to hand).

Playing some 12 or less unit battles is fine with me. We can either play normal unitsize or medium to field more men.

As much as possible, I think players should strive to control units individually.

Move group(s) to the spots and then move individual units from that group to flank if necessary and time permitting.

[Puzz3D]

Yes move into position in groups or even the whole army in one group. Once in position I have guns in one group, infantry in another and two cav groups (one on each flank or both on one flank). As needed, I break units out of their groups to use them individually. Often, you can't get units to move quickly (run) when they are grouped, so if I have to move my infantry line fast, I ungroup them. Moving fast can be critical when you are coming to the assistance of an ally who is under attack.

During setup, I place my units so that they correspond to the left to right order of the icons at the bottom. In this way, I can select the closest unit to respond to a threat even if I don't have my own units in the field of view.

[Togakure]

Yep, I do all of the things Puzz describes, except ungrouping my infantry line when moving quickly. They do "March Quickly" when grouped, but it seems that the speed at which they move is "lowest common denominator" --they will "March Quickly" at the rate of the slowest unit in the group. That has been my observation (but I haven't tested that mathematically). I will have to try ungrouping, but my concern is that then they will break the strict line formation. In STW this was the problem, and why I kept them grouped.

My commmon numbered groups are:

Guns/ranged line
Infantry Line
Infantry Shock if mixed unit type
Right Flank Cav
Left Flank cav
All Cav except Gen

Given Puzz's advice re: mixing unit types when engaging and splitting out, I will be trying mixed infantry subgroups too, probably left, center, and right groups.

I only use "hard" groups (non-numbered, with the bar across the top of the tabs) to move into tailored positions after moving into a general position in all-group. Of course, I use all-group to swivel my entire army if I need to while maintaining the formation the army is currently in.

The last tip Puzz offers regarding setting up from left to right in tab order is really helpful in combat. IIRC, I don't think you could do this in STW, and I really loved the feature once I made the transition to VI.

[TosaInu]

Control is easy Tomi.

Hello,

It isn't easy, but you can do a few things to make it easier for yourself. And yes, less units can mean less headache ^*.

Make groups and supgroups, learn a system, so you can do something even in the most chaotic heat of battle.

My defensive infantry (ys, ya and ni), is 'always' CONTROL SHIFT 1. The gunners are always group 0, a second and third infantry missile group are group 9 and 8. The left wing shock units are group 3, the right wing are group 4.
The whole infantry stack is group 2, so I can move them all at the same time, that sometimes includes the taisho.
Cavalry is group 5. It's possible to modify a bit when using special armies, but best is to keep it the same and get used to it.

^* It happened a few times to me that I felt to be in the game after 75% of my units were erased. You can try a few things here too. First of all you can take less, but more powerful units: 4 WM and 4 HC cost 8,800, get a teppo to spend all money. Of course that is a vulnerable army in the open, but there are teamgames and specialty maps that would make such a punch tactic viable.

Another thing you could do is buy more strong units than normal, but complement it with cheap to make the numbers. You could spend 800 on 4 ya, 800 on 4 arq, 4,000 on 4 WM, that leaves 3400 for four (or less!) more units (avg 850). Examples: 2 HC and 2 Nod, 2 NC and 2 NI. Of course you want the cheap ya and arq to do something good, but you do not have to worry too much about it, your money is in 8 units that are out of harms way and wait to turn the tide. Even just using the cheap units to soak up enemy fire is good.

Yet another idea is to buy a solid army like usual, but include units that can take care of themselves. Examples are NI on hold hold and CA on skirmish (which you can also use to make waves: keep your whole army out of harms way and send some bugs to keep the other busy). The BN can be used like that too. It's a bit of a wildcard unit, it can make over one hundred kills, it can be near useless, best use them in woods. As it is invisible you can show a weak belly and trick your opponent.
If you buy 2 NI, 2 CA and 1 BN, you have only 11 units to really care about.

Use the terrain and stay calm, no matter what. Hide a few units in the woods during deployment and just never touch them until you really really really need them (of course not so far away from the action that they'll be too late). Be aware that your opponent may wonder and start to scout, so it may pay to have something to counter the eyes.

You can do a southpaw deployment and ambush something north (do not forget to disable FAW). Either grab the chance and kill some guns early on or let the whole army pass and have Rangers for the endbattle.

Of course you can mix one or more of those tips, whatever works for you and whatever your opponent doesn't expect you to do.

Edit: the hatamoto is an excellent unit for taisho. It is 'cheap', fast, tough, has good range and skirmish abilities and can be left alone for a bit. When the area is 'secure' even completely forgotten.

[CBR]

Hello,

It isn't easy, but you can do a few things to make it easier for yourself. And yes, less units can mean less headache ^*.

Make groups and supgroups, learn a system, so you can do something even in the most chaotic heat of battle. *snip*

Im using stuff like one main infantry group (swords and spears mixed) with either a secondary group behind it or on one flank, or individual units on both flank but behind main group (mostly one spear) So anything from 3 groups to just one group and a few individual units.

Cavalry is generally single or in groups of 2 although I might start out with one large if I have many of one type (4 YC) and then release the ones I need.

Most group movement is done by dragging a line so I know precisely where it ends and its facing. And if desperate I use it too for the attack, and if I have time I do the individual attacks before the line hits enemy units.


CBR

[Togakure]

Some great tips. I use control groups much like Tosa describes, and it helps a lot. For next week I will be customizing my control buttons. I've been using the stock ones and they're not really handy for this lefty.

Practice games (not just battles, but practicing manuevers with another on the battlefield) can work wonders. if you're interested and ever have the time, I would enjoy doing this. I need the practice too, and can usually meet in the evenings on weeknights after 7 PM EST. I can show you the kinds of things I do, and you could show me what you do. Maybe George would join us (he said he is planning to next weekend, yay!). Sometimes Yuuki is around, maybe he might join us occasionally. I used to do this all the time with new 47 Ronin. It accelerated their learning curve from beginner to intermediate dramatically. For us though, going from intermediate to advanced takes more time, and of course, practice, practice, practice. Maybe we will discover new tricks.

As Yuuki says, match-ups are so important in SW--more so than in the other TW games because it's well-balanced and we don't upgrade. Also crucial are use of terrain, getting a good charge in with cav, supporting units with others for morale--particularly when in the midst of a lot of enemies. Timing attacks with the coming and going of rain can work wonders--particularly against their cav if they don't have many and you have more, and against their pesky archers and CA who tend to come out of hiding when it rains.

I realize how hard the reserves concept can be. I am still playing en masse, using my whole army as one much of the time. From the standpoint of using morale as a weapon, this can be good, but when you commit, you commit! If you commit in error ... well you know how that goes, lol. I will be trying a more divided approach as I get used to SamWars, to see if I like it better. Really though, it's all about the right approach under a particular set of circumstances.