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Thread: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

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    Στωικισμός Member Bijo's Avatar
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    Default (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Thus it has come down to recommencing the thread due to my previous opening post which is perceived as... insulting. Mind you, I have no intention at all to insult. However, I have admitted my opening post to be slightly... unconventional and perhaps harsh to those who are receptive of irrelevant emotional influence. Call it the residue of my past Cynical nature which approaches people directly, honestly, and uncomfortably.

    Bijo, if you want to discuss why people have certain beliefs then by all means try again, but avoid gratuitous insults to those who do not share your world view. Striking through an offensive attack does not suffice to moderate the insult.

    You will find both proponents and opponents of faith quite willing to engage in debate, but you need to frame your discussion in the terms of respect you would expect for your own belief system.
    Fact is: I have stated how religion irrationally does not support the search for truth and it rings true. What has been struck through...
    and they should not be allowed to express their irrational opinions and beliefs which have the appearance of lies.
    ...was no attack however, but it was slightly something of a view indeed albeit loosely included -- it doesn't make it an attack. Know that I appreciate the Org and see no gain in insulting or attacking anyone of it. Furthermore, a person such as I would not resort to senseless offensives without good reason -- and I am one who dislikes and tries to a degree of extremity to avoid deliberate usage of non-reason, therefore such attacks performed by me would not occur.

    I appreciate the allowance of another attempt


    ---


    Now then, let me restate the general case in short:
    The only things certain to bring truth or to at least seek it fairly are logic, befitting philosophy, clear objective thinking, science, and the likes -- not religion or any kind of irrational belief without proper support.



    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Saying a belief in God is irrational is irrational.
    Wherefore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    You must be a messenger of satan trying to fool us all with that satanic invention called logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The concept of Satan is irrelevant and silly. The point is that religion is irrational, therefore it does not support the finding of certain truth.

    I will exemplify this easily with the following: if you, or anyone else, believes something has occurred, no matter what, did it in fact, really, truly, certainly, occur and does your belief properly support your conclusion that this something has occurred? The only true answer is 'no'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The concept of Satan is irrelevant and silly.
    In a rational, logical catholic society, you'd burn for that.
    Setting logic and rationality above everything else is illogical and silly in itself.
    I don't believe in the concept of universal logic.
    The point remains: one's belief without proper support fails to undeniably conclude truth.

    Allow me to re-exemplify with a question: if you believe your wife or girlfriend has cheated on you, does your belief make it true?


    ---


    We are to carefully investigate matters logically, scientifically, philosophically, rationally, and so forth -- not with the utilization of mere belief which religion has been exercising as its basis. And this considers not just religion but any kind of irrational belief.

    Query: why do believers who are religious maintain belief in God? One is somehow convinced that there exists a deity whom one calls God, but is there any logic in this belief? Why start believing in the first place -- the requirement of comfort? Practicality? What is it?

    Observation: the fact that religious people maintain their belief in God -- and that they uphold their related devotions, etc. -- without asking serious critical questions suggests they do not care about the (related) truth nor the quest to it.

    If we follow where reason directs us, the probability of locating truth is significantly elevated.
    Emotion, passions, and desires are, thus peace is not.
    Emotion: you have it or it has you.

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    Pay heed to my story named The Thief in the Mead Hall.
    No.

    ---

    Check out some of my music.

  2. #2
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    1. Do you believe logic is the only way to find "truth"?
    2. Define "religion".
    3. Define "truth".
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Fear of death = the birth of religion. Again this is my opinion and it might offend. Its a shame that opinions are deemed offensive. But what is "offensive" is generally based on opinion. Regardless, you cannot argue anything rational because human beings and thier beliefs are irrational. Religion provides comfort, simply put and deep down inside those who "believe" know this. Unstrap that yoke and run through the fields before you are planted in them. All hail the invisible ghost guy in the sky that will strike me down for spanking my monkey.
    RIP Tosa

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    You're engaging in one of the oldest syllogisms of all time Bijo. You've sat down, examined a problem, and declared what appears to be reasonable to you to be reasonable in the general sense, and the only possible answer. In fact, you've shown no more consideration of opposing viewpoints, and the fact that your personal worldview might be somewhat limited than the average funamentalist tent-revival preacher or screaming Imam.

    If you truly search for reason and logic, might I pose an old philosopher's method for evaluating the reasonablness of one's position? Take the converse position as your own and assume that it is correct. Work through in your own mind the strengths and weaknesses of your argument. Only in understanding the opposition to your argument can you understand your own well enough to safely conclude that you are in fact correct in your stance.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Faith...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
    I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.

  6. #6

    Default AW: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    So you don´t like religions because they don´t contribute much in the search for truth? I think that is a flawed idea.

    First of all, most religions are not searching the truth, they already claim to possess the truth.

    But joking aside. I think one should not expect this from a religion. A religion can be a great thing, because it can improve the life of many people. It helps them to live with fears, pain, gives them hope. Religion provides these "immaterial products". Many people "buy" them and they live well with it.

    However you claim to be above emotions. I hope you are doing well with this stance, I couldn´t.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres
    1. Do you believe logic is the only way to find "truth"?
    2. Define "religion".
    3. Define "truth".
    Well, for that matter, define reason and define logic. The word logic comes from the Greek logos which means "An idea or a precept." Everybody thinks they know that which they think they know and hence, to ourselves, everyone's own arguments seem logical. Even a madman like John Wayne Gasy thought his actions were perfectly logical. Without introspection and considering the fallibility of one's argument, the term 'logical' devolves into "I'm right because I'm right".
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 07-31-2007 at 04:03.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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    Member Member atheotes's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
    Fear of death = the birth of religion.
    in my opinion:
    Fear of the unknown = the birth of irrational beliefs.

    Most people fear darkness... we may be in a place throught the day but if we come back to the same place when it is pitch dark we are not comfortable... Our mind becomes weak and vulnerable. A similar fear is what leads us to believe in religion and such... The belief in a bigger picture and everything is controlled by a just and benevolent superpower seems to comforting and any thoughts otherwise seem to be scary.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
    Fear of death = the birth of religion. Again this is my opinion and it might offend. Its a shame that opinions are deemed offensive. But what is "offensive" is generally based on opinion. Regardless, you cannot argue anything rational because human beings and thier beliefs are irrational. Religion provides comfort, simply put and deep down inside those who "believe" know this. Unstrap that yoke and run through the fields before you are planted in them. All hail the invisible ghost guy in the sky that will strike me down for spanking my monkey.
    Are you drinking in the middle of the day? What you said was actually quite profound: religion is religion and faith is faith, and sometimes, when the planets happen to align just right, they actually have a little bit to do with each other. But your words, God Dave, you're the king of coffee splattered monitors... I had an image of some cartoonish happy go lucky guy skipping naked through a meadow, pulling his pud and getting hit by a bolt of lightning.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bijo
    Allow me to re-exemplify with a question: if you believe your wife or girlfriend has cheated on you, does your belief make it true?
    Allow me to re-ply with another question: If you believe your logic is more logical than mine, does that mean your logic actually is better than mine?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Wherefore?
    Oh, I can't even begin to give that one the treatment it deserves. Let's just say that logic and philosophy are inexorably linked and intertwined with the notion of a god and religion- it's far from "illogical". Most of our great philosophers believed in a god of some sort and certainly didn't think themselves hypocrites for doing so.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Bijo your logig is flawed. Nothing else is absolutely true, but rather just opinions or theories,other then absolute things. And there is no other absolute things in life then death. With philosophy,meditation or learning you can construct a set of beliefs to yourself, but only time that you will face the truth is when you will face death for the last time and religions are sets of beliefs concerning that.
    You can acquire knowledge as much you like, but truth is out from our reach and once it reaches us, it doesnt matter anymore.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    42.

    That's all I have to say.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Logic is broken, it creates paradoxes, which according to the rules of logic shouldn't exist.

    So logic is broken, we're missing something.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    A Wise Man Knows, That he Knows Nothing at all.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    All we are... is dust in the wind....

    All we do... is just a drop of water in an endless sea....
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Why waste your time worrying? Nothing will ever be 100% cold hard fact. Just enjoy the ride
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    Why waste your time worrying? Nothing will ever be 100% cold hard fact. Just enjoy the ride
    I hear you SFTS. But many people want to know if "daddy" is waiting for them after the ride is over or just a dead end of logic.
    This space intentionally left blank

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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    The Matrix has us all. Nothing more need be said.


    "Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
    that which is his due."
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregoshi
    I hear you SFTS. But many people want to know if "daddy" is waiting for them after the ride is over or just a dead end of logic.
    For every one you answer Greg there will be two that takes its place. Enjoy it and dont worry. when your time comes it comes thats how its always been and always will be. There is no need to fear or worry becuase death is just part of life
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Whatever gets you through the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
    I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichigo
    Whatever gets you through the day.
    me?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  23. #23
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Religion and religious beliefs as is has already been described grows out of the fear of the unknown....mainly death....there are many things that we don´t know about about this universe we life in .... and for many people that is a troublesome thought....so they make up the pieces that are missing in order to feel safer....religion acts like a nice warm blanket and keeps the bogeyman away at night I guess.

    To this you have to add the social control facet of religion....this is basically what organized religion is all about...a way that was devised long ago to keep people in line and following the rules of society back in a time were there really was no way to enforce such rules....but who needs an army to keep the peace if you can convince everyone that they better behave or some all-knowing figure is gonna kick their ass if they don´t?...this also takes care of aspect nº1 -> answers for the difficult questions in life..."no need to come to your own conclusions....it´s all explained in this handy book here"

    I always thought that the biggest litmus test that you can do to ascertain if the existence of religion makes sense or not is the following one:

    Imagine that you were just born...and as you grow up nobody ever tells you about religion, religion is not presented to you in any form...when you ask questions about the world people reply to you with the best of their knowledge...and if they don´t know the answer they are honest and tell you so.

    would you come up with the idea of religion yourself?


    I know I wouldn´t....
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Well what is the truth? Truth is that religion comforts a lot of people, I will never understand the need to harass religious people with scientific fundamentalism. They believe all that, get over it.

  25. #25
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Religion and religious beliefs as is has already been described grows out of the fear of the unknown....mainly death
    ...

    but who needs an army to keep the peace if you can convince everyone that they better behave or some all-knowing figure is gonna kick their ass if they don´t?...
    ...

    would you come up with the idea of religion yourself?
    ...
    Yes… I can see the reason for comforting worried tribe members, which has lost a loved one.
    Yes… I can see the reason for making rules within the tribe that is self enforced with the promise of a better life after death if followed.
    Yes I can see greed as a motive to enrich and empower one self by gathering followers of your particular invented belief.

    But there are occasions that don’t fit with this picture.
    You have people claim visitations and apparent miracles being performed.
    This have been recorded and witnessed. I am thinking of the early Christians and other recently established organisations.
    The early church had Judaism as the established organisation with rules and promises of a life eternal. Their book was full of testimonies from the ancient followers with appurtenant miracles. Then a man is born, with sightings of angels, a man that performed miracles and the viewers testified of them.
    He organised a new movement within Judaism and established a new order, apparently foretold in every book of the ancient prophets.
    His followers were doomed to die the martyrdom but promised an eternal life in the kingdom to come. There was no shock that they were destroyed, it was prophesied.

    A new age and this Judaic movement becomes a world religion; a new tool for controlling a world.
    Reformers do not agree on certain points and breaks off.
    A time of dispute and disagreements leads to countless branches of the first. Who is right? Which one of them will ensure my life hereafter?

    The second organisation I am thinking of starts with a 14 year old boy in search of truth.
    He reads the bible and from the book of one of the brothers of thunder he learns a recipe for truth. Upon trying this recipe he apparently receives a visitation from the Godhead.
    Wow… you say. Well, He is able to convince his entire family. Then he is repeatedly visited by angels and there are even witnesses testifying in writing that these things are true. This is not the end of it.
    Heavenly visitations are recorded throughout this man’s life and ancient figures like John the Baptist, st.Peter, st.James and st.John comes and bestow lost priesthoods. Moses, Elijah and other of the powerful ancients comes and passes on their authorities. Jesus himself visits and says all is well in front of several witnesses.
    Many likenesses with the early church are evident up to the martyrdom of this man. The organisation is persecuted and driven from their land, many perishes and soon find themselves in a desolate desert where they finally finds rest.

    The increase in converts to this organisation can only be compared with that of the early church where thousands joined in one day. This was 150 years ago and is well documented.

    I say there is reason to not be too confident in what you believe is truth… logic says you should keep the backdoor open for eventualities.

    Thus says an agnostic.
    Amen.
    Last edited by Sigurd; 07-31-2007 at 12:42.
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    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Now then, let me restate the general case in short:
    The only things certain to bring truth or to at least seek it fairly are logic, befitting philosophy, clear objective thinking, science, and the likes -- not religion or any kind of irrational belief without proper support.
    That presupposes that truth is the true purpose of religion, and I don't believe that it is.

    Much has been done in the name of god over the centuries, but it remains true that devoted practitioners of most modern world religions make it their utmost duty to do good in their community, in their country, and in this world.

    Followers of religion see, in the 'truth' presented to them, a measure of finality to existence; a way to bring greater meaning and fulfilment to their lives. For the most part, they take this, and they go forth, and in their conviction they harm no one, but help themselves.

    So that is religion; a tool, to be sure, but a tool that, in essence, is doing more good than harm.

    So I don't think that truth is what you should be searching for; or what you are searching for.

    I think that to find what you seek, sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief.

    Religions are termed faiths for a reason.

    NB: I'm an athiest. I believe that if god is benevolent, he will forgive me for my disbelief; that if he is malevolent, I would not want to believe; and that if he does not exist, I need not believe...but I do see the value of measured faith in other people's lives; and I do believe that there is a place for those who are sincere in the truth that they think that they have found in the modern world. Sometimes blind faith can be the only solution to a person's woes; and if that helps them, without hurting us, then there is no need to question the truth of that which is aiding them.
    Last edited by sapi; 07-31-2007 at 12:52.
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  27. #27
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
    Yes… I can see the reason for comforting worried tribe members, which has lost a loved one.
    Yes… I can see the reason for making rules within the tribe that is self enforced with the promise of a better life after death if followed.
    Yes I can see greed as a motive to enrich and empower one self by gathering followers of your particular invented belief.

    But there are occasions that don’t fit with this picture.
    You have people claim visitations and apparent miracles being performed.
    This have been recorded and witnessed. I am thinking of the early Christians and other recently established organisations.
    The early church had Judaism as the established organisation with rules and promises of a life eternal. Their book was full of testimonies from the ancient followers with appurtenant miracles. Then a man is born, with sightings of angels, a man that performed miracles and the viewers testified of them.
    He organised a new movement within Judaism and established a new order, apparently foretold in every book of the ancient prophets.
    His followers were doomed to die the martyrdom but promised an eternal life in the kingdom to come. There was no shock that they were destroyed, it was prophesied.

    A new age and this Judaic movement becomes a world religion; a new tool for controlling a world.
    Reformers do not agree on certain points and breaks off.
    A time of dispute and disagreements leads to countless branches of the first. Who is right? Which one of them will ensure my life hereafter?

    The second organisation I am thinking of starts with a 14 year old boy in search of truth.
    He reads the bible and from the book of one of the brothers of thunder he learns a recipe for truth. Upon trying this recipe he apparently receives a visitation from the Godhead.
    Wow… you say. Well, He is able to convince his entire family. Then he is repeatedly visited by angels and there are even witnesses testifying in writing that these things are true. This is not the end of it.
    Heavenly visitations are recorded throughout this man’s life and ancient figures like John the Baptist, st.Peter, st.James and st.John comes and bestow lost priesthoods. Moses, Elijah and other of the powerful ancients comes and passes on their authorities. Jesus himself visits and says all is well in front of several witnesses.
    Many likenesses with the early church are evident up to the martyrdom of this man. The organisation is persecuted and driven from their land, many perishes and soon find themselves in a desolate desert where they finally finds rest.

    The increase in converts to this organisation can only be compared with that of the early church where thousands joined in one day. This was 150 years ago and is well documented.

    I say there is reason to not be too confident in what you believe is truth… logic says you should keep the backdoor open for eventualities.

    Thus says an agnostic.
    Amen.

    if a person comes up to you today saying that he was visited by angels and such do you form a religion around what he is saying or do you instruct him to visit a psychiatrist?


    just because it happened a long time ago this doesn´t make those claims any less crazy....the only difference was they didn´t have straitjackets and padded rooms back them....go figure.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
    - Calvin

  28. #28
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    if a person comes up to you today saying that he was visited by angels and such do you form a religion around what he is saying or do you instruct him to visit a psychiatrist?
    Well... Islam was founded in such a way.

    Who knows, If I was visited by an angle... I would probably sit in a padded room, thinking: "Damn I should have kept my mouth shut".
    Status Emeritus

  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    Why waste your time worrying? Nothing will ever be 100% cold hard fact. Just enjoy the ride
    Philosophy now. It pains me to admit it, but there really is NOTHING a Texan cannot do....

    To pose the question slightly differently: why does religion require faith?

    Assuming god exists, I can see why he might want us to behave a certain way. (Equally, I can see why he wouldn't.) I can see he might want us to be good, or honest, or clever, or for all I know he might want us to paint our backsides blue, after all, he is God, who is to argue. But why does he want us to BELIEVE?

    This qu is (c) Richard Dawkins, rather than an original assassin production, btw. But its a good qu to which I would be interested in seeing if there is an answer.
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

  30. #30
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: (2) Why believe? Why religion? Why no search for truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
    Well... Islam was founded in such a way.

    Who knows, If I was visited by an angle... I would probably sit in a padded room, thinking: "Damn I should have kept my mouth shut".
    You might just end up with Märtha Louise though...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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