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Thread: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

  1. #1

    Default Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    i've never played EB reaching beyond 200 BC, so my question is whether Pontus and Hayastan get legionaries after Marian reform in Rome? the way it works in vanilla and RTR.
    thanks

  2. #2
    Member Member Lovejoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Nope! But Hay gets "Mardig Sooseramartik (Armenian Medium Infantry)" which pretty much fights as "legionaries".

    Read more about them as well as Pontos diffrent units here:
    https://www.europabarbarorum.com/fac...dan_units.html

  3. #3
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    If you can offer us any evidence that Hayasdan emulated Roman methods of fighting (beyond the natural similarities of close-order, med/heavy inf fighting with javs and swords) I see no reason to speculate as to their existence. And Roman writers without specialist knowledge of military technology and tactics writing outside of the time-period do not count.

    Foot
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovejoy
    Nope! But Hay gets "Mardig Sooseramartik (Armenian Medium Infantry)" which pretty much fights as "legionaries".

    Read more about them as well as Pontos diffrent units here:
    https://www.europabarbarorum.com/fac...dan_units.html
    thanks.
    Armenians look like legioneries but shouldnt Pontus (and Armenia in its turn) get a "proper" imitation legionaries after sometime after encounter with Rome? just to reflect the historical facts.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot
    If you can offer us any evidence that Hayasdan emulated Roman methods of fighting (beyond the natural similarities of close-order, med/heavy inf fighting with javs and swords) I see no reason to speculate as to their existence. And Roman writers without specialist knowledge of military technology and tactics writing outside of the time-period do not count.

    Foot
    i was just about to quote them writers.
    i partially agree regarding Armenia, but what about Pontus? it is known that Mithridates had italian officers (some send by Sertorius from Spain) that trained his army to fight in Roman fashion.

  6. #6
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss
    thanks.
    Armenians look like legioneries but shouldnt Pontus (and Armenia in its turn) get a "proper" imitation legionaries after sometime after encounter with Rome? just to reflect the historical facts.


    Show me evidence that they did have imitation legions and I will get that done. Otherwise, show a bit more respect to those cultures who were debased by Roman misunderstanding and propaganda.

    Damn them and their literature!

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    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss
    i was just about to quote them writers.
    i partially agree regarding Armenia, but what about Pontus? it is known that Mithridates had italian officers (some send by Sertorius from Spain) that trained his army to fight in Roman fashion.
    And? Training to fight as disciplined, close-order infantry hardly equates to having imitation legions. Pontos was far more influenced by the Hellenistic world, no one goes on about Pontos having imitation hoplites. Movement of technology and tactics in military is far more fluid than the Romans would like us to believe. Any reference to imitation legionnaires in a Pontic army is probably referring to a Thorakitai unit, which Pontos will get.

    Foot
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot


    Show me evidence that they did have imitation legions and I will get that done. Otherwise, show a bit more respect to those cultures who were debased by Roman misunderstanding and propaganda.

    Damn them and their literature!

    Foot
    indeed, damn them!
    what more respect can i show if i am a descendant of one of those very cultures

  9. #9
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss
    indeed, damn them!
    what more respect can i show if i am a descendant of one of those very cultures
    Look further than roman authors. Armenia is a big black hole of information for this period, but their is evidence beyond the romans of Armenia's place in the world back then.

    If you can get a hold of it, The Peoples of the Hills, by Burney and Lang is a great read. I even managed to get a signed first edition!

    Redgate's "The Armenians" is also not too bad, and I'm a big fan of Chahin and his book "The Kingdom of Armenia". Only a critical appreciation of the roman texts (or any of the primary texts relating to that period) will give any worthy information on the subject. Also, try getting a hold of a copy of Movses Khorenats'i's book then you should definitely read that as well.

    Information is poor, but it is out there. And most of the authors writing on Armenian history now are very critical of the primary roman and greek texts of the time.

    Foot
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot
    Look further than roman authors. Armenia is a big black hole of information for this period, but their is evidence beyond the romans of Armenia's place in the world back then.

    If you can get a hold of it, The Peoples of the Hills, by Burney and Lang is a great read. I even managed to get a signed first edition!

    Redgate's "The Armenians" is also not too bad, and I'm a big fan of Chahin and his book "The Kingdom of Armenia". Only a critical appreciation of the roman texts (or any of the primary texts relating to that period) will give any worthy information on the subject. Also, try getting a hold of a copy of Movses Khorenats'i's book then you should definitely read that as well.

    Information is poor, but it is out there. And most of the authors writing on Armenian history now are very critical of the primary roman and greek texts of the time.

    Foot
    yep.
    i read Movses Khorenatsi, currently reading Chahin's "The Kingdom of Armenia".
    what exactly "the Peoples of the hills" is about?
    there are also works of Nicolay Adontz - "The peasantry of Ancient Armenia", "The Art of Dionysius Grammarian and his Armenian Interpretations", "Political parties in Ancient Armenia" and "Armenia in the period of Justinian".

  11. #11

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Should Pontus being getting Theuropoi and Thoraktai ? Yeah I know I butchered the spelling .


    Join the Army: A Pontic AAR
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96984
    ...uh coptic mother****er:A Makuria Comedy AAR
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  12. #12
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    They already have Thureophoroi through their regional MIC. They will be getting a Thorakitai unit, but it won't be the same as the Hellenistic factions.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    If it isn't a secret how will it be different ?


    Join the Army: A Pontic AAR
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96984
    ...uh coptic mother****er:A Makuria Comedy AAR
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  14. #14
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Eh, I'll keep you in suspense... mainly becuase I can.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Hey I'll cut you off from my brownies .


    Join the Army: A Pontic AAR
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96984
    ...uh coptic mother****er:A Makuria Comedy AAR
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...93#post1814493

  16. #16
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    hahaha...i love the blackmail there. to be honest, the unit is finished yet, but believe me i hope you'll see it soon (and then you'll be sending brownies to someone else!).
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  17. #17
    Uneasy with Command Member Treverer's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    ... They will be getting a Thorakitai unit...
    Towards the end of the book, the Moties quote an old story from Herodotus:

    "Once there was a thief who was to be executed. As he was taken away he made a bargain with the king: In one year he would teach the king's favorite horse to sing hymns."
    "The other prisoners watched the thief singing to the horse and laughed. 'You will not succeed,' they told him. 'No one can.' To which the thief replied, 'I have a year, and who knows what will happen in that time. The king might die. The horse might die. I might die. And perhaps the horse will learn to sing.'"

  18. #18

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    didnt roman deserters train pontus or armenian soldiers? its been awhile since ive read about the campaign involving Pompey etc.

  19. #19
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Marku
    didnt roman deserters train pontus or armenian soldiers? its been awhile since ive read about the campaign involving Pompey etc.
    Mithradates once arraged a deal with the Marian rebels in Spain (led by Sertorius) that he would support their rebellion against the Sullan regime in Rome in exchange for Roman instructors for his army. His new-model did not perform very creditably in the subsequent Roman invasions of Pontus, but then he was up against two very good Roman generals.

    I am not sure if there was such a thing as an Armenian imitation legionary. The only place I've ever seen or read about them was in vanilla R:TW.
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

  20. #20
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    The Armenian "imitations" might have shown up at Tigranocerta. Not sure though.

  21. #21
    Uneasy with Command Member Treverer's Avatar
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    Question Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    ... They will be getting a Thorakitai unit, but it won't be the same as the Hellenistic factions.
    to pester you once more, but the Pontic unit, will it be a "Thorakitai" or a "Thorakitai Argyraspidai" (uff, got it)?

    Yours,
    Treverer
    Towards the end of the book, the Moties quote an old story from Herodotus:

    "Once there was a thief who was to be executed. As he was taken away he made a bargain with the king: In one year he would teach the king's favorite horse to sing hymns."
    "The other prisoners watched the thief singing to the horse and laughed. 'You will not succeed,' they told him. 'No one can.' To which the thief replied, 'I have a year, and who knows what will happen in that time. The king might die. The horse might die. I might die. And perhaps the horse will learn to sing.'"

  22. #22
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Treverer
    ... "Thorakitai Argyraspidai"...
    You wish!

  23. #23
    Uneasy with Command Member Treverer's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    You wish!
    Again the language barrier - or myself being a bit slow on understanding ?!
    Do not answer me, please! I'll let me surprise ... and already dream of armies with elite phalanxes, heavy (armoured) spearmen, G.T.s & some archers / slingers & the heavy cav unit ...
    ____________________________________

    Last edited by Treverer; 08-08-2007 at 15:09.
    Towards the end of the book, the Moties quote an old story from Herodotus:

    "Once there was a thief who was to be executed. As he was taken away he made a bargain with the king: In one year he would teach the king's favorite horse to sing hymns."
    "The other prisoners watched the thief singing to the horse and laughed. 'You will not succeed,' they told him. 'No one can.' To which the thief replied, 'I have a year, and who knows what will happen in that time. The king might die. The horse might die. I might die. And perhaps the horse will learn to sing.'"

  24. #24
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Argyraspidai means "Silver Shields" the unit is specifically part of the Royal Guard.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  25. #25

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    THe only faction that should get imitation legionaries is the ptolemies and that's only because Ptolemy Auletes let actual roman legionaries settle in Alexandria to replace his royal guard...
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    The Armenian "imitations" might have shown up at Tigranocerta. Not sure though.
    and Artaxarta... after defeat at Tigranocert, Mithridates (and his officers) were put in charge of training a new Armenian army.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Another thing that has been going on forever . Getting military advisers to help train your army .


    Join the Army: A Pontic AAR
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  28. #28
    Uneasy with Command Member Treverer's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
    Argyraspidai means "Silver Shields" the unit is specifically part of the Royal Guard.
    this learns me to use a language I do understand ... what I was asking is: do they get "Heavy Spearmen" or "Heavy Armoured Spearmen"?
    Towards the end of the book, the Moties quote an old story from Herodotus:

    "Once there was a thief who was to be executed. As he was taken away he made a bargain with the king: In one year he would teach the king's favorite horse to sing hymns."
    "The other prisoners watched the thief singing to the horse and laughed. 'You will not succeed,' they told him. 'No one can.' To which the thief replied, 'I have a year, and who knows what will happen in that time. The king might die. The horse might die. I might die. And perhaps the horse will learn to sing.'"

  29. #29

    Default Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarax
    THe only faction that should get imitation legionaries is the ptolemies and that's only because Ptolemy Auletes let actual roman legionaries settle in Alexandria to replace his royal guard...
    Seems that Mithradates had imitation Legionaires in the 2nd Mithradatic War, and perhaps even a legion of Roman Republican/Marian 'deserters'. At least his troops were being trained by these numerous Marians, and from what I have read imitation legions were being used at lest by the time of the battles against the Roman legate Triarius.

    Additionally, after Mithradates flight to the Bhosphorus, the 40,000 man or so army he formed there was seemingly in the main being trained and formed as the Roman Legions were. However, Mithradates died during a coup initiated by his son I think it was before this army was put to use.

    Chris

  30. #30
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Pontic, Armenian legionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Treverer
    this learns me to use a language I do understand ... what I was asking is: do they get "Heavy Spearmen" or "Heavy Armoured Spearmen"?
    Pontos already has the heavy spearmen (Thureophoroi), and they will get the armoured spearmen (Thorakitai). Obviously, they won't get the inner elite of the royal guard of the Seleucid Empire (Thorakitai Argyraspidai).
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