Pontic, Armenian legionaries

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Sarkiss 13:20 08-02-2007

i've never played EB reaching beyond 200 BC, so my question is whether Pontus and Hayastan get legionaries after Marian reform in Rome? the way it works in vanilla and RTR.
thanks

Lovejoy 13:24 08-02-2007

Nope! But Hay gets "Mardig Sooseramartik (Armenian Medium Infantry)" which pretty much fights as "legionaries".

Read more about them as well as Pontos diffrent units here:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/fac...dan_units.html

Foot 13:29 08-02-2007

If you can offer us any evidence that Hayasdan emulated Roman methods of fighting (beyond the natural similarities of close-order, med/heavy inf fighting with javs and swords) I see no reason to speculate as to their existence. And Roman writers without specialist knowledge of military technology and tactics writing outside of the time-period do not count.

Foot

Sarkiss 13:31 08-02-2007

Originally Posted by Lovejoy:
Nope! But Hay gets "Mardig Sooseramartik (Armenian Medium Infantry)" which pretty much fights as "legionaries".

Read more about them as well as Pontos diffrent units here:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/fac...dan_units.html

thanks.
Armenians look like legioneries but shouldnt Pontus (and Armenia in its turn) get a "proper" imitation legionaries after sometime after encounter with Rome? just to reflect the historical facts.

Sarkiss 13:34 08-02-2007

Originally Posted by Foot:
If you can offer us any evidence that Hayasdan emulated Roman methods of fighting (beyond the natural similarities of close-order, med/heavy inf fighting with javs and swords) I see no reason to speculate as to their existence. And Roman writers without specialist knowledge of military technology and tactics writing outside of the time-period do not count.

Foot

i was just about to quote them writers.
i partially agree regarding Armenia, but what about Pontus? it is known that Mithridates had italian officers (some send by Sertorius from Spain) that trained his army to fight in Roman fashion.

Foot 13:35 08-02-2007

Originally Posted by Sarkiss:
thanks.
Armenians look like legioneries but shouldnt Pontus (and Armenia in its turn) get a "proper" imitation legionaries after sometime after encounter with Rome? just to reflect the historical facts.

Show me evidence that they did have imitation legions and I will get that done. Otherwise, show a bit more respect to those cultures who were debased by Roman misunderstanding and propaganda.

Damn them and their literature!

Foot

Foot 13:39 08-02-2007

Originally Posted by Sarkiss:
i was just about to quote them writers.
i partially agree regarding Armenia, but what about Pontus? it is known that Mithridates had italian officers (some send by Sertorius from Spain) that trained his army to fight in Roman fashion.

And? Training to fight as disciplined, close-order infantry hardly equates to having imitation legions. Pontos was far more influenced by the Hellenistic world, no one goes on about Pontos having imitation hoplites. Movement of technology and tactics in military is far more fluid than the Romans would like us to believe. Any reference to imitation legionnaires in a Pontic army is probably referring to a Thorakitai unit, which Pontos will get.

Foot

Sarkiss 13:42 08-02-2007

Originally Posted by Foot:

Show me evidence that they did have imitation legions and I will get that done. Otherwise, show a bit more respect to those cultures who were debased by Roman misunderstanding and propaganda.

Damn them and their literature!

Foot

indeed, damn them!

what more respect can i show if i am a descendant of one of those very cultures

Foot 14:02 08-02-2007

Originally Posted by Sarkiss:
indeed, damn them!
what more respect can i show if i am a descendant of one of those very cultures

Look further than roman authors. Armenia is a big black hole of information for this period, but their is evidence beyond the romans of Armenia's place in the world back then.

If you can get a hold of it, The Peoples of the Hills, by Burney and Lang is a great read. I even managed to get a signed first edition!

Redgate's "The Armenians" is also not too bad, and I'm a big fan of Chahin and his book "The Kingdom of Armenia". Only a critical appreciation of the roman texts (or any of the primary texts relating to that period) will give any worthy information on the subject. Also, try getting a hold of a copy of Movses Khorenats'i's book then you should definitely read that as well.

Information is poor, but it is out there. And most of the authors writing on Armenian history now are very critical of the primary roman and greek texts of the time.

Foot

Sarkiss 20:15 08-02-2007

Originally Posted by Foot:
Look further than roman authors. Armenia is a big black hole of information for this period, but their is evidence beyond the romans of Armenia's place in the world back then.

If you can get a hold of it, The Peoples of the Hills, by Burney and Lang is a great read. I even managed to get a signed first edition!

Redgate's "The Armenians" is also not too bad, and I'm a big fan of Chahin and his book "The Kingdom of Armenia". Only a critical appreciation of the roman texts (or any of the primary texts relating to that period) will give any worthy information on the subject. Also, try getting a hold of a copy of Movses Khorenats'i's book then you should definitely read that as well.

Information is poor, but it is out there. And most of the authors writing on Armenian history now are very critical of the primary roman and greek texts of the time.

Foot

yep.
i read Movses Khorenatsi, currently reading Chahin's "The Kingdom of Armenia".
what exactly "the Peoples of the hills" is about?
there are also works of Nicolay Adontz - "The peasantry of Ancient Armenia", "The Art of Dionysius Grammarian and his Armenian Interpretations", "Political parties in Ancient Armenia" and "Armenia in the period of Justinian".

russia almighty 21:49 08-02-2007

Should Pontus being getting Theuropoi and Thoraktai ? Yeah I know I butchered the spelling .

abou 22:09 08-02-2007

They already have Thureophoroi through their regional MIC. They will be getting a Thorakitai unit, but it won't be the same as the Hellenistic factions.

russia almighty 22:10 08-02-2007

If it isn't a secret how will it be different ?

abou 23:03 08-02-2007

Eh, I'll keep you in suspense... mainly becuase I can.

russia almighty 23:49 08-02-2007

Hey I'll cut you off from my brownies .

paullus 02:44 08-03-2007

hahaha...i love the blackmail there. to be honest, the unit is finished yet, but believe me i hope you'll see it soon (and then you'll be sending brownies to someone else!).

Treverer 13:06 08-08-2007

Originally Posted by abou:
... They will be getting a Thorakitai unit...

Marku 13:53 08-08-2007

didnt roman deserters train pontus or armenian soldiers? its been awhile since ive read about the campaign involving Pompey etc.

Ludens 14:04 08-08-2007

Originally Posted by Marku:
didnt roman deserters train pontus or armenian soldiers? its been awhile since ive read about the campaign involving Pompey etc.

Mithradates once arraged a deal with the Marian rebels in Spain (led by Sertorius) that he would support their rebellion against the Sullan regime in Rome in exchange for Roman instructors for his army. His new-model did not perform very creditably in the subsequent Roman invasions of Pontus, but then he was up against two very good Roman generals.

I am not sure if there was such a thing as an Armenian imitation legionary. The only place I've ever seen or read about them was in vanilla R:TW.

abou 14:45 08-08-2007

The Armenian "imitations" might have shown up at Tigranocerta. Not sure though.

Treverer 14:52 08-08-2007

Originally Posted by abou:
... They will be getting a Thorakitai unit, but it won't be the same as the Hellenistic factions.

to pester you once more, but the Pontic unit, will it be a "Thorakitai" or a "Thorakitai Argyraspidai" (uff, got it)?

Yours,
Treverer

abou 14:54 08-08-2007

Originally Posted by Treverer:
... "Thorakitai Argyraspidai"...

You wish!

Treverer 15:08 08-08-2007

Originally Posted by abou:
You wish!

Again the language barrier - or myself being a bit slow on understanding ?!
Do not answer me, please! I'll let me surprise ... and already dream of armies with elite phalanxes, heavy (armoured) spearmen, G.T.s & some archers / slingers & the heavy cav unit ...
____________________________________

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus 19:38 08-08-2007

Argyraspidai means "Silver Shields" the unit is specifically part of the Royal Guard.

Zarax 20:34 08-08-2007

THe only faction that should get imitation legionaries is the ptolemies and that's only because Ptolemy Auletes let actual roman legionaries settle in Alexandria to replace his royal guard...

Sarkiss 20:42 08-08-2007

Originally Posted by abou:
The Armenian "imitations" might have shown up at Tigranocerta. Not sure though.

and Artaxarta... after defeat at Tigranocert, Mithridates (and his officers) were put in charge of training a new Armenian army.

russia almighty 21:59 08-08-2007

Another thing that has been going on forever . Getting military advisers to help train your army .

Treverer 04:14 08-09-2007

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Argyraspidai means "Silver Shields" the unit is specifically part of the Royal Guard.

this learns me to use a language I do understand ... what I was asking is: do they get "Heavy Spearmen" or "Heavy Armoured Spearmen"?

christof139 04:54 08-09-2007

Originally Posted by Zarax:
THe only faction that should get imitation legionaries is the ptolemies and that's only because Ptolemy Auletes let actual roman legionaries settle in Alexandria to replace his royal guard...

Seems that Mithradates had imitation Legionaires in the 2nd Mithradatic War, and perhaps even a legion of Roman Republican/Marian 'deserters'. At least his troops were being trained by these numerous Marians, and from what I have read imitation legions were being used at lest by the time of the battles against the Roman legate Triarius.

Additionally, after Mithradates flight to the Bhosphorus, the 40,000 man or so army he formed there was seemingly in the main being trained and formed as the Roman Legions were. However, Mithradates died during a coup initiated by his son I think it was before this army was put to use.

Chris

Ludens 13:07 08-09-2007

Originally Posted by Treverer:
this learns me to use a language I do understand ... what I was asking is: do they get "Heavy Spearmen" or "Heavy Armoured Spearmen"?

Pontos already has the heavy spearmen (Thureophoroi), and they will get the armoured spearmen (Thorakitai). Obviously, they won't get the inner elite of the royal guard of the Seleucid Empire (Thorakitai Argyraspidai).

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