Happy Cannae Day

[Palasta]

Palasta,

There's more than enough information at your fingertips to help you learn about the battle of Cannae...Wikipedia's entry is a good place to start. For books on the subject, Daly's "Cannae: The Experience of Battle in the Second Punic War" and Goldworthy's "Cannae" are recommended...go for it!

i already did that a long time ago, and not only wiki. there was a good website with a fine sketch of the area. unfortunaly the site was closed quite a while ago.

[Boyar Son]

dang ppl... celebrating massacres and the victory of baby killers?

[abou]

dang ppl... celebrating massacres and the victory of baby killers?

[Boyar Son]

for shame everyone...for shame...

[Zaknafien]

well the romans were 'baby killers' too, you know. infanticide has been around for ages in numerous cultures, btw.

[Boyar Son]

well the romans were 'baby killers' too, you know. infanticide has been around for ages in numerous cultures, btw.

yeah but it was part of their culture (carthage)

[abou]

Not to mention the current consensus is that the Carthaginians did not do mass infant sacrifices.

[Boyar Son]

Not to mention the current consensus is that the Carthaginians did not do mass infant sacrifices.

Aha!!

read that? "infant sacrifices"

coulda sworn i saw "mass" too...

[pezhetairoi]

We celebrate it nonetheless. It was a great victory for at least one side, and it set things in motion which, perhaps, might have changed things if it had not happened. It hardened the resolve of the Roman Republic to come out victorious, which directly resulted in the conquest of Africa and the beginnings of the Republican empire. It almost certainly played a part in the calculations of the basileus Philip that ended at Kynoskephalae and the admittance of Greece into the Roman sphere. Cannae, if not directly, then contributed huge amount to the kickstarting of Roman power that resulted in the High Empire, the great fall, and the innumerable influences of the Roman cultural heritage that still permeate our life and language today.

So if we celebrate baby-killers, that's why. It's like saying Hitler was a great politician who understood the secrets of political power. The mass murder of the Jews has nothing to do with that assessment. We know that it happened, and don't get me wrong, I hate Hitler for what he did, but that doesn't change the fact that he was remarkable enough a man to get himself into a position where he could hold such power in the first place. The Romans and Carthaginians may have been baby-killers, but that has nothing to do with the celebration of the momentous event called Cannae. We aren't celebrating mass murder and organised slaughter. We are celebrating causality.

[Treverer]

A though, just a though:

We, the players of EB, haven't we got each one already our own "Cannae"? After achieving a "Heroic Victory", how do we feel? Great, aren't we? And yes, we are the masterminds, the architects of these victories.

The 'only' difference is: we play a Computer-game, Hannibal fought in real-life. But I make the (hypo-) thesis, that both he and we have the same emotions after the victory ... or haven't we?

Yours,
Treverer

[Conqueror]

I wouldn't presume to know anything about the post-battle emotions of a punic warlord who lived over two millennia ago in a world so radically different from our's. I wouldn't even presume to know anything about the post-battle emotions of any modern age military commander.

[Urnamma]

Are you refering to the Eastern Roman Empire or the Byzantine Empire? The Byzantines may have been highly influenced by the Romans, but they are a separate civilzation.

and you mean Macedonian-Greeks right? since as EB proves, the Greek-Greeks had the worst cavalry ever...

No, the Byzantines are not a separate civilization, but the continuation of the Roman Empire.

[Intranetusa]

No, the Byzantines are not a separate civilization, but the continuation of the Roman Empire.

No, the Byzantines were a mishmash culture of Middle Eastern, Greek, and Roman influence. They are not Roman because:

1. They did not control Rome and had Constantinople as their capital
2. They did not speak Latin, they spoke Greek
3. Were Greek Orthodox instead of Catholic (later periods)
4. Later came into political, millitary, and religious conflict with Italy
etc


Just because Byzantines were heavily influenced by the Romans doesn't make them Roman.


Let me give you an anagology: would you say Japan and Korea are continuations of Chinese civilization? The vast majority of their culture, language, religion, etc is based on pre-Qing dynasty China. And for much of their history, they were either governed by or a tributary of China - does that make them a continuation of that Chinese civilization? Nope, they have developed elements of their own culture and lanugage. Same for Roman-Byzantines

[Bonny]

Just because Byzantines were heavily influenced by the Romans doesn't make them Roman.

The City of Byzanz had been part of the roman empire for several hundred years, before the leaders decide to split the administration of the empire in two. One half was still administratded from Rome the other half was administrated from Konstantinopel which was formerly knowen as Byzanz.

Let me give you an anagology: would you say Japan and Korea are continuations of Chinese civilization? The vast majority of their culture, language, religion, etc is based on pre-Qing dynasty China. And for much of their history, they were either governed by or a tributary of China - does that make them a continuation of that Chinese civilization? Nope, they have developed elements of their own culture and lanugage. Same for Roman-Byzantines

To my knowledge neither Korea nor Japan had been part a part of China.

[Zaknafien]

The Romans killed babies as part of their culture too, you know. Roman fathers had the power of life and death over everyone in their home and could have them killed at will (and were known to do so not so long before our time peirod). Infants who were sickly or deformed were killed by exposure if not accepted by the father as legitimate. Many female children were killed in this way too, since the father often did not want more girls to care for.

[Thaatu]

A though, just a though:

We, the players of EB, haven't we got each one already our own "Cannae"? After achieving a "Heroic Victory", how do we feel? Great, aren't we? And yes, we are the masterminds, the architects of these victories.

The 'only' difference is: we play a Computer-game, Hannibal fought in real-life. But I make the (hypo-) thesis, that both he and we have the same emotions after the victory ... or haven't we?

After a really heroic victory in RTW, my first thought usually is "I'm hungry and I need to pee". I really wish Hannibal thought something more philosophical and whatnot. Or maybe that's why he failed to capitalise...

[Ludens]

No, the Byzantines were a mishmash culture of Middle Eastern, Greek, and Roman influence. They are not Roman because:

1. They did not control Rome and had Constantinople as their capital
2. They did not speak Latin, they spoke Greek
3. Were Greek Orthodox instead of Catholic (later periods)
4. Later came into political, millitary, and religious conflict with Italy
etc


Just because Byzantines were heavily influenced by the Romans doesn't make them Roman.

Byzantine Empire is a term mainly used by historians. In it's day, it was called the (Eastern) Roman Empire. Because that's what they were. After the death of Julian the Apostate, the Empire was split in two parts. The western part fell a century or so later, the eastern part continued for another millenium. Yes, it grew widely divergent over that time, but that's the nature of things. In fact, to this day, the Greek word for Greekness still refers to this Roman heritage.

BTW, when the empire was split there was no Catholicism, or Orthodoxy. IIRC the schisma occured long after the fall of the Western Empire.

[Reno Melitensis]

I can guess what Hannibal Barca taught after his great victory at Cannae.

" Today is a great victory for our people, take a deep breath and you will smell victory, the smell of the dying, the dead and blood. maybe tomorrow it will be us. So enjoy.". As quoted by one of Gisco's grandsons.

Cheers.

[Intranetusa]

The City of Byzanz had been part of the roman empire for several hundred years, before the leaders decide to split the administration of the empire in two. One half was still administratded from Rome the other half was administrated from Konstantinopel which was formerly knowen as Byzanz.


To my knowledge neither Korea nor Japan had been part a part of China.

Byzantinum was part of the Eastern Roman Empire for hundreds of years, but the when they lost Rome itself, changed the language to Greek, and adopted Middle Eastern & Greek cultures which eventually displaced Roman culture, then they became a separate and distinct civilization.



Actually yes, Korea was part of China during several dynasties (ie. Han?) I believe, while Japan was more of a protectorate who paid tribute in the form of money and goods.

[Intranetusa]

Byzantine Empire is a term mainly used by historians. In it's day, it was called the (Eastern) Roman Empire. Because that's what they were. After the death of Julian the Apostate, the Empire was split in two parts. The western part fell a century or so later, the eastern part continued for another millenium. Yes, it grew widely divergent over that time, but that's the nature of things. In fact, to this day, the Greek word for Greekness still refers to this Roman heritage.

BTW, when the empire was split there was no Catholicism, or Orthodoxy. IIRC the schisma occured long after the fall of the Western Empire.

They may have thought themselves are Roman, but ROman they were not.
An similar situation would be that many Americans during the American Revolution still thought them as British, and it took the distinct American indentity many decades replaced the British one.


I know how the Eastern Empire came to be, but the Byzantines became a highly distinct culture from where it originally came from. Yes, when civilizations diverge, then it becomes a separate civilization.

Especially when they don't speak the same language, don't have the same religion, and have different cultures.


Btw, I'm referring to the years AFTER the fall of the western Roman Empire. Not while both empires still existed

[geala]

I think the Byzantine empire had more similarities with the Roman empire after the 3rd c. AD than the Roman empire after the 3rd c. AD had with the Roman empire of , lets say, the 1st c. AD. And Greek was ever the dominating language in the eastern parts of the Roman empire.

But back to the problem which started the "Byzantine question": the Romans began to use cataphract cavalry from the 2nd c. AD onwards. So you cannot say they never had good heavy cavalry.

[oudysseos]

Does it not matter that the "Byzantines" (a name they never used, in fact no-one used until Gibbon) called themselves Roman? Did the Western Romans stop being Romans when the capitol of the empire moved to Ravenna? Or how about all the later emperors who weren't themselves ethnically roman?
I think your american analogy is a little flawed: the americans (at least after 4 July 1776) were trying on purpose to stop being british. It's not clear to me that the emperors at Constantinople tried to stop calling themselves roman.

[keravnos]

Not to mention one simple fact...

The great majority of Romani "inteligensia", senior administrators, senators, generals, their family and belongings, all emigrated to Konstaninoupolis, or Nova Roma prior to the destruction of Roma at 410 CE, and immediately afterwards. So did anyone who could.

If we were back in time, even prior to the destruction of Western Roman empire, anyone observing from afar would see 2 Romani empires, the "old" dieing one and the "newer" one who would apper to anyone as more "built to last" than the old one.

So in fact it was the "heart" and "soul" of the Romani who got transfered to "Romania" as the Byzantines would call their state-No relation to present day Romania-. Turks called the byzantines Rumi, and their first sultanate on former byzantine anatolian soil was called "Sultanate of Rum". We present greeks even to this date call ourselves "Romioi" not as descendants of Roma, but of the Nova Roma state, aka Byzantio.

As I posted in an earlier thread about this very thing, Romani who could fled Roma to save themselves and their civilisation, then hundreds of years later found themselves on the receiving end of Germanics calling themselves Romans (after some Pappal nasty tricks, aka "Donatio Constantini" and other forgeries) because of some "slight" doctrinal changes imposed by the former to differentiate from "the other Romans".

Like leaving your burning house to save your life, and then someone comes 2 generations down to kill your offspring claiming he is your true descendant, while he 's the one who burned down your former house.

[oudysseos]

Back to Cannae Day. This is my proposed Cannae Day Anthem. You maybe able to guess the tune, eh?


O Cannae Day! When Rome was at a stand,
From Punic might (without the Sacred Band).
Though Gisgo thought he saw the size
of Varro's bold army,
From both the flanks, on Cannae Day,
Was Rome's catastrophe.
Baal's Grace, our Man
Hannibal to ye!
O Cannae Day, we count the casualties
Inflicted on the Romans by Hispanic Cavalry.




OK so the last line in somewhat out of metre.

[Ludens]

I know how the Eastern Empire came to be, but the Byzantines became a highly distinct culture from where it originally came from. Yes, when civilizations diverge, then it becomes a separate civilization.

Especially when they don't speak the same language, don't have the same religion, and have different cultures.

Btw, I'm referring to the years AFTER the fall of the western Roman Empire. Not while both empires still existed

So the early Byzantine empire would be the same as the Roman empire, but not the late Byzantine empire? Because the culture wouldn't have diverged at that point.

Does it not matter that the "Byzantines" (a name they never used, in fact no-one used until Gibbon) called themselves Roman?

I recall reading somewhere that a couple of Byzantine chroniclers actually used the name "Byzantine Empire", but you are right that it use didn't become popular until modern times.

[KARTLOS]

Byzantinum was part of the Eastern Roman Empire for hundreds of years, but the when they lost Rome itself, changed the language to Greek, and adopted Middle Eastern & Greek cultures which eventually displaced Roman culture, then they became a separate and distinct civilization.



Actually yes, Korea was part of China during several dynasties (ie. Han?) I believe, while Japan was more of a protectorate who paid tribute in the form of money and goods.

since we are in the caucaus here are three Armenian videos.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DcykRzdU...elated&search=


https://youtube.com/watch?v=OgKRQTB4...elated&search=

https://youtube.com/watch?v=x-eNysUH...elated&search=

there was never really a "changing language to greek". greek was always spoken in the east and all roman noblitiy spoke greek. it was not a big shift to allow greek to become the language of the empire.

[The Stranger]

Not quite true, the later Cataphracts etc were excellant heavy cavalry which blended the best of Greek and Eastern cavalry traditions. Even the Germano-Celtic Auxillia Alae were excellant medium cavalry. Crassus sepperated his force and allowed his cavalry to move too far ahead.

It was his own fault.

actually the romans didnt have good cavalry, people they conquered had good cavalry though.

btw on the cataphracts, there are also lots who believe that the cataphracts were actually an overrated palace guard. i mean there were no (those things you stick your foot in on a horse, its part of the saddle, dunno its name) pedals? so heavy cavalry wouldve been thrown of their horse by impact. I think the cataphracts main strength was its fearsome appearance. and maybe they had good melee ability but they didnt become fearsome shockcavalry i think till the eleven century with the byzantines.

[Intranetusa]

"Like leaving your burning house to save your life, an"d then someone comes 2 generations down to kill your offspring claiming he is your true descendant, while he 's the one who burned down your former house."

Yes, just like you don't take over someone else's preexisting house and claim it as your own.

"greek was always spoken in the east and all roman noblitiy spoke greek. it was not a big shift to allow greek to become the language of the empire."

From Crassus's period to Pax Romana, many Romans also spoke Latin in the East/Turkey/etc. Under Byzantines...not so much.



anyways, the later Byzantine empire after the fall of the west is quite different
and unique from the original Roman empire. Yes it had many influences, but Middle Eastern and Greek culture became the primary source of influence.

This mishmash of many cultures is what makes the Byzantines a new different civilization from the Romans.

"in fact it was the "heart" and "soul" of the Romani who got transfered to "Romania" as the Byzantines would call their state-No relation to present day Romania"

You can say that about many civilizations. Are the Carthaginians the same as Phoneicians? Even though the heart and soul of Phonecia was transfered by colonists, and Phoneica later being conquered? Are the Japanese the same as Chinese? Even though the majority of Japan culture was mainly based on Tang and earlier dynasties - and with traditional Chinese culture being suppressed and wiped away during Yuan and Qing dynasties?

Are what about the earliest various Middle Eastern civilizations, who were built on the ruins of another? Would you consider Babylonians, Akkadians, Assyrians, Sumerians etc the same civilization, just because they were based on each other?

[abou]

actually the romans didnt have good cavalry, people they conquered had good cavalry though.

btw on the cataphracts, there are also lots who believe that the cataphracts were actually an overrated palace guard. i mean there were no (those things you stick your foot in on a horse, its part of the saddle, dunno its name) pedals? so heavy cavalry wouldve been thrown of their horse by impact. I think the cataphracts main strength was its fearsome appearance. and maybe they had good melee ability but they didnt become fearsome shockcavalry i think till the eleven century with the byzantines.

My friend, you've missed many a conversation. The trick behind cavalry of the era was the four-horned saddle, which snuggly fit the rider into place. This allowed him to charge quite well and effectively.

[Ludens]

anyways, the later Byzantine empire after the fall of the west is quite different
and unique from the original Roman empire. Yes it had many influences, but Middle Eastern and Greek culture became the primary source of influence.

I repeat my question: would the early Byzantine empire be the same as the Roman empire, since culturally it wasn't different?

From Crassus's period to Pax Romana, many Romans also spoke Latin in the East/Turkey/etc. Under Byzantines...not so much.

As I understand it: in the the late (unified) Empire, Latin was the language of the law, but Greek was the language of the governement. This remained the case in the Byzantine Empire.