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Thread: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/....ap/index.html

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Senate passed legislation Thursday to add 3 million lower-income children to a popular health insurance program in bipartisan defiance of President Bush's threatened veto.

    The 68-31 vote, one day after the House passed a more ambitious and expensive version over bitter Republican opposition, handed Democrats a solid achievement to trumpet as they leave Washington for a summer break.
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    It also gave Democrats, who secured a veto-proof margin, a chance to draw a stark distinction between their priorities and Bush's on an issue that resonates with voters.

    "For the life of me, I can't understand why the president would want to veto this legislation," said Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., the Finance Committee chairman. "It's moderate, it's bipartisan, it helps low-income kids. ... It's just the right thing to do for the country."

    Bush has proposed spending $5 billion to extend the program. He says the Senate's $35 billion expansion would balloon the decade-old program beyond its original mission of covering children of working-poor parents and would move more people toward government-run health care.

    The State Children's Health Insurance Program expires Sept. 30.

    The Senate measure now must be reconciled with the House-passed $50 billion expansion, which was paid for partly by cutting government payments to Medicare health maintenance organizations.

    Both bills include hefty tax increases on tobacco products to pay for the spending increase.


    The health program is designed to subsidize the cost of insurance for children whose families earn too much to participate in Medicaid, but not enough to afford private health insurance.

    Through federal waivers, the program has expanded in many states to include middle-income children and adults. That has led Republicans to argue that it has become a backdoor way to extend government-provided health care to an increasing number of people.

    National polls show overwhelming majorities of voters support expanding the children's health program and are more likely to support candidates who back it.


    Sounds good, right? The article mentions a "hefty increase" on tobacco taxes.

    Let's look at what that will do:

    http://www.sptimes.com/2007/07/17/Bu...n_a_pani.shtml

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Eric Newman punches the numbers on his calculator and gapes at the results one more time.

    It's no mathematical error: The federal government has proposed raising taxes on premium cigars, the kind Newman's family has been rolling for decades in Ybor City, by as much as 20,000 percent.

    As part of an increase in tobacco taxes designed to pay for children's health insurance, the nickel-per-cigar tax that has ruled the industry could rise to as much as $10 per cigar.

    "I'm not sure in the history of man, since our forefathers founded the country in 1776, that there's ever been a tax increase of 20,000 percent," said Newman, who runs the Tampa business founded by grandfather Julius Caesar Newman. "They had the Boston Tea Party for less than this."

    When it comes to tobacco sales, cigars are just a speck compared to cigarettes. In 2006, the nearly 400-billion cigarettes sold domestically dwarfed the 5.3-billion cigars.

    But cigars are intertwined with Tampa's lineage.

    Though the local industry has shriveled from foreign competition and domestic consolidation, cigarmaking still employs more than 1,000 in Tampa. About 900 work at the factory, offices and warehouse of Hav-a-Tampa, owned by foreign tobacco giant Altadis.

    Newman machine-makes 35,000 cigars a day at 16th Street and Columbus Avenue and imports hand-wrapped varieties from Latin America. He estimates Florida makes or imports 80 percent of the cigars consumed in the United States and predicts devastation if the new taxes are approved this summer.

    Many casual smokers are well heeled enough to plunk down $10 for a premium puff. But would they pay $15 to $20 for the same pleasure?

    "Why don't we just go out of business?" Newman said. "Here, you can run our company, Mr. Government."

    Here's the source of the controversy: The Democrat controlled Congress has sought an extra $35-billion to $50-billion for the state children's health insurance program. The program distributes payments to the states to help buy coverage for kids not poor enough for Medicaid.

    Cigarettes, which accounted for more than 95 percent of tobacco tax collections last year, are the main focus of the bill. Federal taxes on a pack would jump from 39 cents to $1.

    But the legislation has dragged cigars along for the ride. The industry operates under a 4.8 cents-per-cigar tax cap.

    Under the proposed bill, taxes on "large cigars," a category that includes all but the tiny cigars sold in 20 packs like cigarettes, would rise to 53 percent.

    A U.S. Senate version of the bill under consideration today in the Finance Committee sets the maximum tax per cigar at $10.

    "We are a very small industry. We're the fly. The cigarette industry is the elephant as far as tax collections are concerned," Newman said. "We've been roped in with conglomerates that own cigarette companies."

    Newman's eyes and ears in Washington, Norm Sharp, president of the Cigar Association of America, was dumbfounded when the legislation went public Friday.

    "I thought there was a typo. I thought they meant 10 cents per cigar, not $10 per cigar. I was stunned like everyone else," Sharp said.

    Sharp's organization represents 66 members, including Newman, Altadis and Jacksonville's Swisher International, the global company that makes Swisher Sweets.

    The association has lobbied to exclude cigars from the bill, but bristles at the public relations challenge: How do you oppose a sin tax Congress has rigged to help sick kids? Senate staffers couldn't be reached for comment.

    In Newman's view other companies declined comment and left the talking to Sharp, it's not just unfair but also immoral to overtax a product enjoyed not by addicts but by worthy pleasure seekers. The average aficionado smokes about three cigars a week at about $3 to $5 apiece, according to the cigar association.

    "A good wine. A good scotch. A good bourbon. A good cigar. It all enhances the quality of life," Newman said. "We're in the relaxation business."

    The Bush administration may inadvertently come to the industry's aid. The president has vowed to veto the bill, not over the cigar provision but over objections to expanding federally financed health care for the non-indigent.

    Several business in and around Ybor City, usually blind to the workings of Washington, will be craning their necks toward the capital.

    "Things happen strangely in Washington," Newman said.


    20,000% increase on Cigars? What the hell!

    All this is going to do is kill the Cigar Industry here in America. People will cut back or stop buying them all together, while people who live near the boarder to Canada (me), will just go there to buy them.

    Edit: Oh yeah, tax on cigarettes are going up too.
    Last edited by Ice; 08-05-2007 at 08:44.



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    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Viva La Mexico!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
    I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    People will cut back or stop buying them all together
    ... I can see how that would be a bad thing...
    Last edited by CountArach; 08-05-2007 at 08:32.
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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach
    ... I can see how that would be a bad thing...
    Thats not the point. I don't want the government forcing me to do anything like this. If I want to smoke, I should be able to smoke and not pay a ton of money.



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    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach
    ... I can see how that would be a bad thing...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
    I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Thats not the point. I don't want the government forcing me to do anything like this. If I want to smoke, I should be able to smoke and not pay a ton of money.
    If you want to smoke, I am fine with that. I would not stand in anyones way. On the other hand, I think that Tobacco companies need to be punished for polluting so many people through their propoganda and constant denile that it is bad for you (I have asthma and I belive it is because my Mum smoked when she was pregnant before a lot of the bad side-effects were told - She has quit now).

    It just so happens that the only way that they can be forced to pay for this is by raising the price of their cigarettes. If only they could be forced to pay this tax without passing it on to the consumer...

    Now, where was that thread about price controlling...
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Why smoke?

    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Thats not the point. I don't want the government forcing me to do anything like this. If I want to smoke, I should be able to smoke and not pay a ton of money.
    Then you shouldn't be buying them here. We've that for 1 or 2 decades. Buy'em at home buy'em here your still subsidizing the same idea.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573
    Then you shouldn't be buying them here. We've that for 1 or 2 decades. Buy'em at home buy'em here your still subsidizing the same idea.
    Just buy them on an a reservation that doesn't charge federal taxes.

    Honestly, I don't smoke and don't like smoking- but I also really resent it when our government tries to sneak their hands into our wallets to pay for a bloated welfare state.

    Then they always use emotional appeals to try to silence any opposition. I mean, who would oppose healthcare for the children? What kind of monster are you?
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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    ... Then they always use emotional appeals to try to silence any opposition. I mean, who would oppose healthcare for the children? What kind of monster are you?
    That's the tactic used out here on the left coast since the mid-80's, with huge success. I guess the DC-ites decided to try it on a national level.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Smoking is damned expensive. Snuff is more sociable, more pleasant, more healthy and more affordable.
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Great, another step towards socialized healthcare.

    Apparently medicare for poor kids wasn't enough - we need more money for kids not covered by medicare, until every kid who's parents don't have 5 million plus will have it.

    Snuff is more sociable,
    If by sociable you mean disgusting to those around you.

    more pleasant, more healthy
    Healthy? You're putting concentrated levels of tobacco right in your mouth.

    In washington, they recently passed a 45million dollar bill for health insurance for kids - approximately 10,000 a year per kid, I think. And most of the money is going to non-citizens, many of whom are probably illegals.


    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Mouth?! Heaven forfend! Oral snuff is banned in the UK and most of the EU. I mean proper sniffed snuff.
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
    -The Charge of the Light Brigade - Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    "Wherever this stone shall lie, the King of the Scots shall rule"
    -Prophecy of the Stone of Destiny

    "For God, For King and country, For loved ones home and Empire, For the sacred cause of justice, and The freedom of the world, They buried him among the kings because he, Had done good toward God and toward his house."
    -Inscription on the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573
    Then you shouldn't be buying them here. We've that for 1 or 2 decades. Buy'em at home buy'em here your still subsidizing the same idea.
    Anybody who lives near the Mexican boarder want to do me a favor?



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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Oral is the way to go
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm
    Mouth?! Heaven forfend! Oral snuff is banned in the UK and most of the EU. I mean proper sniffed snuff.
    That's why we live in Scandinavia, the land where men are men, elves are real and mouths are stuffed with tobacco...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  17. #17

    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Face it, in the USA, to get real Cigars, you had to go to Canada anyway because of the trade embargo on Cuba.
    I support Israel

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Just buy them on an a reservation that doesn't charge federal taxes.
    Your talking about in the US I know. But here in Canada white-man can only buy so much tobacco per person on the rez.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo_H
    Face it, in the USA, to get real Cigars, you had to go to Canada anyway because of the trade embargo on Cuba.
    Nah, only an ignorant person on cigars would say such a thing.



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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm
    Mouth?! Heaven forfend! Oral snuff is banned in the UK and most of the EU. I mean proper sniffed snuff.
    Oh, fair enough then.

    CR

    Edit: Banned? For health reasons?
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  21. #21
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Edit: Banned? For health reasons?
    No, lack of tradition. It's legal in Norway and Sweden, because we've had it for centuries.

    BTW, what we have here is extremely different to the american version...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  22. #22

    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Nah, only an ignorant person on cigars would say such a thing.
    Well it is possible that American companies have since come up with high quality substitutes, but the only cigars I will ever smoke, as a non American, are Cuban.
    I support Israel

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    No, lack of tradition. It's legal in Norway and Sweden, because we've had it for centuries.

    BTW, what we have here is extremely different to the american version...
    Really what is it like?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Anybody who lives near the Mexican boarder want to do me a favor?
    If you pay me enough
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
    I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.

  25. #25
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo_H
    Well it is possible that American companies have since come up with high quality substitutes, but the only cigars I will ever smoke, as a non American, are Cuban.


    American Companies? Come on man, we import most of our cigars from the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua , Honduras, and other varies places in Latin America. I have smoked some fantastic cigars. I have also smoked two Cubans. One expensive and one medium to expensive. They were both good cigars, but nothing better that I've bought from those other countries. I have also looked at many of cigar ratings. Hardly ever do they rate Cubans as the finest (mind you, at least a couple of these were published outside the USA).

    Besides, before Castro could fully seize power, many Cuban growers left the island taking their seed and technique with them. They now grow in similar conditions, with the same technique and seed that the ones in Cuba do.

    The whole Cuban thing has become a myth just because Americans can't buy them.



  26. #26
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South
    Really what is it like?
    Hmm... I didn't explain it earlier because I'm not quite sure how to do it

    But... The american version I've tried(which came from a US army base in germany, but I believe it's the one you have), was somewhat similar to rice, only a lot thinner. Baking it into a ball(as we do), was damn near impossible. The kind we have, is a lot "wetter", and the grains are a lot shorter. Awful explanation, I know, but I', not sure how to do any better, and I don't have any photo's, so....
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  27. #27
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looks Like I'm going to Canada to buy Cigars

    SFTS: They mix chewing tobacco with what we call snuff, for a stronger (usually flavored), wetter product.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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