Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Gunpowder

  1. #1

    Default Gunpowder

    Does every one have the same near disastrous results when fighting with/against gun powder for the first time?

    No matter how experienced i am i always loose 80% of my army when fighting with or against arbusque...
    Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
    By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
    Quote Originally Posted by North Korea
    It is our military's traditional response to quell provocative actions with a merciless thunderbolt.

  2. #2
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Zen Garden
    Posts
    2,715

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    A unit being targeted by gunfire suffers a large morale penalty. Keep the main body of you army together for the morale boost, and flank, flank, flank with skirmishing cavalry. If you attack head on into the gunfire, you'll most likely get blasted to smithereens.

    If you are attacking and the enemy has arquebuses, choose to attack in rain. They won't work. Muskets will, however. Note that muskets are a lot less effective in rain as far as kills go, but still inflict the big morale penalty.

    I draw enemy cav and spears away from the guns with baiter units, keeping a nag cav or two back until the guns are unprotected. Then I take them out. I attack obliquely or from a flank, never head on.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

  3. #3

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    I know most of that stuff it's just it always messes me over it annoys the hell outa me
    Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
    By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
    Quote Originally Posted by North Korea
    It is our military's traditional response to quell provocative actions with a merciless thunderbolt.

  4. #4
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Zen Garden
    Posts
    2,715

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    Well, if you indeed know all that stuff then the issue is probably timing, control, etc. Sometimes battles just don't go well because of mistakes like these. This happens to me occasionally. If it's happening consistently though, then I would analyze how you're approaching battles where the enemy has guns.

    To answer your question, I don't have those issues unless I make a glaring contol mistake (meaning click wrong, select wrong unit(s), etc. in the heat of battle). It takes a gigantic AI army with tons of reinforcements to beat me if I have a balanced army, and even that doesn't happen often because I push my entire army to their end of the map, keep them together in coordinated formation, and rout the reinforcements as they arrive.

    Then again, my choices on the strategy map usually prevent lopsided battles like that from happening. Usually I'm the one choosing to attack in mid- and late-game. The AI rarely attacks me because it has "reasoned" that to do so would result in defeat. Then again, sometimes I "trick" it, by deliberately fielding a small, but strong army, specifically designed to draw out and defeat its target (armies with ninja are excellent for this, particularly on certain maps).

    It's time for Samurai Warlords MP! Yay! Cya.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

  5. #5

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    Quote Originally Posted by Jkarinen
    Does every one have the same near disastrous results when fighting with/against gun powder for the first time?

    No matter how experienced i am i always loose 80% of my army when fighting with or against arbusque...
    The first time I came up against an all gunpowder army was when I had nearly conquered the map and there was one rebel province with an all arquebus army. So I charged in with all heavy calvalry and was pretty shocked when the first volley decimated the units leading the charge. I won the battle, but I'll never forget that lead heavy calvary unit evaporating before my eyes.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    The guns in STW/MI v1.02 are a mistake. They are not the guns that the community v1.02 beta team approved. The approved stats are now lost, but these are the original Creative Assembly stats for the guns in STW v1.12, and if you edit the projectiles.txt file, you can change the guns back to the original stats:

    Arquebus
    {
    0, 15, 4000, 200, 0.07, 4.0, 30, 1, 0
    }

    Musket
    {
    0, 15, 5000, 250, 0.12, 4.0, 21, 1, 1
    }



    These are the original Creative Assembly gun stats for STW/MI v1.0 and v1.01 if you want to try these. The power=16 is of no consequence since anything over power=8 doesn't do anything.

    Arquebus
    {
    0, 15, 4000, 200, 0.07, 16.0, 30, 1, 0
    }

    Musket
    {
    0, 15, 5000, 250, 0.12, 16.0, 21, 1, 1
    }
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 08-08-2007 at 01:59.

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  7. #7

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    To me if they fighting on my side there reload to slow and when i fight them they seem to fire like archers with massive ammounts of dammage added so even if i charge them with yari cav(fastest in the game iirc) they get 4 volleys off but if the enemy attacks the same way i get 2 at most and thats shooting down hill so i think my game has glitchs
    Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
    By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
    Quote Originally Posted by North Korea
    It is our military's traditional response to quell provocative actions with a merciless thunderbolt.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    I've never noticed a difference between my and the AI's gunpowder units.

    I have found that an army with 4-5 musketeers in a good defensive location is nigh unbeatable by the AI (on hard - I haven't tried it on expert).
    I never use arquebusiers, only musketeers.

  9. #9
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Zen Garden
    Posts
    2,715

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    Rate of fire is affected by the number of ranks (rows) the gun unit is put in. If put in one or two rows, they fire one big volley and then take quite a bit of time to reload. If put in three or four rows, the ranks rotate, increasing the rate of fire dramatically. With rotating ranks, not as many guns fire at once obviously, so kills per volley is lower.

    Most MP players put their guns in three ranks. Some talented players will put them in two, hold fire, wait til the enemy gets really close and then blast the crap out of them in one huge volley, sometimes routing the closest units instantly. Then they'll reposition them into three ranks for rotating fire.

    Last night I played the opening of the 1580 campaign as the Shimazu and attacked Hizen (Tokugawa) on the very first turn using every unit with which I could reach that province (I did attack by sea from Satsuma, with Daimyo Yoshihisa commanding). In this scenario you have an inferior army, but two arquebusiers. I chose a fine day to attack, and used a classic Shimazu strategy. Because the Tokugawa outnumbered me considerably, they attacked as defenders. I faked a retreat to the rise behind me, and waited until they were very close before ordering my two-row-deep guns to fire on Honda Heihachiro's Yari Cav Taisho unit and the one other Yari cav unit. He was killed instantly, and after a very short engagement, his army routed. Despite a much smaller army with no cavalry, against an army with twice as many archers, two yari cav units and 3 ninja units, the Shimazu won with relative ease. Try it. It's a good battle for illustrating how guns can turn the tide against an otherwise superior army.

    When I see you write that you charge them with Yari cav, it makes me wonder if you are charging them frontally. With STW Mongol Invasions or Warlord Edition and the 1.02 patch, this is just not a good thing to do. The morale penalty from being targeted by guns is high, and coupled with large numbers of kills per volley, the morale drop is quickly fatal for the cav unit. You can often successfully charge an attritioned unit (one that has been significantly damaged), but rarely a full unit that is fresh.

    In v1.02, Yari cav have a base morale of 4 and armor of 3. Heavy Cav have a base morale of 6 and armor of 6, and Naginata cav have a base morale of 8 and armor of 4. Consider this when assaulting guns with cav. I choose nag cav usually, sometimes heavy cav, and use terrain, angle of attack, and timing to overcome their slower speed.

    Archers have superior range, so one approach is to wear down gun units with arrow fire (your archers will be shot up if they get too close, so try to keep them at a distance, just outside of range).

    I very often use units to attract the attention of the guns (ashigaru are good for this--fast and cheap), staying just within range and leading them into a position where I can charge with cav from the flank. This works especially well against the AI. I usually keep my army together, but against an opponent with a lot of guns, I'll often spread out and surround rather than assault from a single direction. This pulls the guns out of line, and makes them much easier to deal with.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

  10. #10

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    Thank you Masamune That helped quite a bit

    though i played for over 2000 hours i never noticed a difference so i just had 4-6 groups spread two thin who would fire then flee to behind the last group and reload
    Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
    By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
    Quote Originally Posted by North Korea
    It is our military's traditional response to quell provocative actions with a merciless thunderbolt.

  11. #11
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Zen Garden
    Posts
    2,715

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    You're welcome, Jkarinen. I'm glad to see so many others who still love this game, and it's good to be useful.

    I have played so many hours also, and tonight I learned something that I never knew before. I've been focusing on the 1580 campaign lately, trying different factions. I mentioned the first game as the Shimazu. Next, I played as Tokugawa and used a rather unorthodox approach to my opening. I abandoned Mikawa and Totomi within three turns, liquidating all assets there for koku, and moved to Kyushu, attacking Satsuma by sea with my nine ninja units. It was conquered easily as Shimazu forces had moved north (and they don't start with neary as many men--part of my strategy). After winning the ninja battle (if you can call it that--they ran away from my men in black), Ieyasu took a leisurely cruise with his Eastern army to Satsuma. I pincered the Shimazu between the armies of Honda in Hizen and Tokugawa in Satsuma, and conquered Kyushu entirely within a couple of years. I could now enjoy what would normally be the secure starting position of the Shimazu as the Tokugawa--quite a contrast from what the Tokugawa normally face in the 1580 campaign.

    But I digress--on to the thing I've never noticed before. Last night I started a campaign as the Uesugi, 1580. As I slowly but surely fought off and pushed both the Hojo and Takeda back, I was reviewing Suruga's income distribution. The Takeda start with a Port and Portuguese Trading Post there. At first I thought I'd spotted a bug--ports yield a steady 200 koku income per year. Port income was listed as 400 per year! I looked at all the other ports I could see: 200 koku per year.

    My guess based on these observations is that a trading post adds 200 koku to the base port income (a 100% increase!). I have yet to confirm this by viewing other ports with trading posts, and am very curious to see if a Dutch Trading Post has the same effect. If this is confirmed, it will alter my approach to economic warfare in games where going Christian makes sense.

    Ever get frustrated by the fluctuating and unpredictable nature of harvest income? It's a cool feature of the game, but can wreak havoc on plans. My counter to it is to focus on building ports, mines, mine complexes, and if I go Christian, a Cathedral and then churches up the yin yang. Income from these is steady--no fluctuation, and leads to cash flow that is more predictable, allowing both better long-term planning and response to unexpected situations. I usually improve farmland 20% in provinces yielding a base of ~300 or more asap because it's relatively cheap and only takes one year. After that, I will bite the bullet of higher initial expense and focus on mines and ports unless a province is exceptionally rich (Owari, Musashi, Hitachi, Mutsu, and to a lesser degree, Echigo, Sagami, Kozuke, Kawachi, Ise, and Hizen are what I term "golden rice bowl" provinces).

    At a cost of 750 koku, a port pays for itself in about 4 years. Churches cost 400 koku and yield 100 koku per year, paying for themselves in four years. Mines yield 200, 400, and 600 koku per year for copper, silver, and gold mines, respectively. Mine complexes double these. Because income from these sources is steady, I try to build them as early as possible to start reaping profits as soon as possible. The earlier they're built, the more guaranteed value you get from them throughout the game.

    One thing about Churches is that, if you have a Cathedral, you earn income from the Churches of other clans too. If several other clans have built a number of churches, it can be a prudent economic strategy to jump on the Jesus bandwagon--particularly if they haven't got cathedrals and you can beat them to one early. If an opposing clan does have a cathedral, then I think it's important to compare the economic benefit the churches you build will provide them, in addition to the benefit they will provide you.

    Heh, got on quite a roll there. Blah blah blah.

    "Hei Poru! Hei Poru!! Hei Poru--yu don hafu tu bi poru enimoru! Jizasu izu hiya! JIZASU IZU HIYA ... ( *crazy sampled laughter* ). - Front 242, Welcome to Paradise).
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

  12. #12

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    some very useful info
    Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
    By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
    Quote Originally Posted by North Korea
    It is our military's traditional response to quell provocative actions with a merciless thunderbolt.

  13. #13
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In my own little world....but it's okay, they know me there.
    Posts
    8,250

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    Interesting, Masamune. I'm not sure I've ever noticed that about the trading posts, either. Of course, part of it might be that I almost never turn Catholic, and so have to wait longer for the Dutch to establish relations. Usually by the time they do so, I'm paying less attention to my income -- thanks to the improvements I've built by then (ports, mines, and farm upgrades) -- and so I don't look at my accounts as much. Good tip, mate.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  14. #14
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Zen Garden
    Posts
    2,715

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    Thanks, Martok . I just finished an Uesugi 1580 campaign, and have confirmed that Trading Posts--Portuguese or Dutch--do indeed add 200 koku per turn. At the start of the 1580 Oda campaign (which I've just begun; this is going to be a tough one), there is a Portuguese Trading Post, without a port (?!) in Owari that is generating 200 koku of trade income per year.

    At the end of my Uesugi campaign, I was earning 15,000 koku in trade income alone, 5,600 in mine income, and about 19,000 in agricultural income on a good harvest. The campaign completed in 1600. This is easily the most trade income I've ever had to date in an STW SP campaign. I basically had enough cash flow to build a Port, Large Castle, and Dutch Trading Post in every sea-bordered province in central and Eastern Japan. I finished before being able to build many in the Mori lands or on Kyushu or Shikoku.

    As Uesugi I remained Buddhist. The 1580 campaign is such that even the remotely Eastern Uesugi gain access to western traders relatively early. A Dutch Trading Post requires a Port and a Large Castle to build, whereas if I remember correctly (I'll soon know from my Oda campaign), a Portuguese Trading Post requires only a port (which requires at least a small castle). Hence, the initial investment and time to profit is longer when going the Dutch route.

    For the last ten years I was producing 1 h3 ashigaru (Owari, for garrisons), 2 h0 arquebusiers (Musashi and Shimosa; for garrisons), 1 h0 muskeeter (Sado), 1 h3 archer (Totomi), 1 h2 yari sam (Kai), 1 h2 monk (Echigo), 1 h2 nag cav (Hitachi), 1 h3 heavy cav (Shinano), 1 h1 cav archer (Shimotsuke), 2 h2 shinobi (Hida and Dewa) and 1 h1 emissary (Kazusa) each turn, pretty much. If a harvest went bad I'd produce nothing in Autumn, and sometimes I would turn off production of expensive units for a season to allow for a Citadel or two. All in all though, I was able to keep high-quality troops cranking out like crazy.

    It was a bit of a steamroll having a standard army composed of a general followed by 2 h0 muskets with legendary armor, 1 h3 archer with exceptional weapons, 2 h2 yari samurai with exceptional armor, 4 h2 monks with legendary weapons, 2 h1 cavalry archers, 2 h2 nag cav with legendary armor, and 2 h3 heavy cav with legendary weapons and armor. When the general was 4-star adding +h2, or 6-star Date Masamune adding +h3 to these values ... opponents were running soon after initial engagement, even when I didn't really execute my attack well.

    I won't be playing the Uesugi campaign again anytime soon, as it's a bit too easy once you get the cash flowing. But the campaign was an excellent study in maxing out trade income to enable constant troop production and infrastructure developement.

    1580 Oda now ... this is going to be a biyotch.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

  15. #15
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Zen Garden
    Posts
    2,715

    Default Re: Gunpowder

    I stand corrected on information I posted earlier in this thread: archers and musketeers have the same range, according to Puzz3D. Archers have better accuracy and rate-of-fire. Arquebusiers have reduced range and accuracy in comparison to these two, and in STW MI v1.02 cannot fire in rain. Muskets can, though at a significantly reduced effectiveness.

    ***

    In Samurai Warlords mod, neither type of gun can fire in rain.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO