Question (on Goidillic units and names)

[Riadach]

I have no knowledge what-so-ever in ancient Gallic or Irish, so please go easy with me, but i have a couple of questions:

If, say, someone of Gallic origins from modern day France, the Iberian penisular or even ancient mainland britain travelled to ancient Ireland in the timeframe of when the cycles etc were written, would they retain their own name and spelling of said name?

Writing, in its truest sense, did not arrive in Ireland till 500 A.D. In the time that Gallic languages were being spoken, there would have been no one to write this information down. Neither would those gallic speakers be truly literate to have their own spelling of their names, but their are druidic inscriptions that do give us structure to Gallic and Celtiberian.?

Were the letters 'Y' and 'K' used in any of the ancient Gallic languages?

Y is rather a late letter, actually a combination of u and I. I don't think latin made much use of the letter K, so I doubt K existed. But this would have absolutely no relation to what a monk wrote in a monastery 900 afterwards. The Irish had no concept that they were 'celtic' or linked in anyway to brythonic or gallic peoples.

If so, were there equivalents in ancient Irish? If so in what form did they take?

In Irish there is no soft c sound. Therefore a special letter is not required to distinguish a hard c before a slender vowel and one before a broad vowel.C suffices for both.

Please forgive my naivity on the subject.


Mega

We're all naive on the subject at some stage or another. All we need is a step up.

[Riadach]

just for the record, even if we have no actual records of Primitive Irish, we (the world) DO have records of other Indo-European languages and their transformation over time, we can use other Celtic languages and linguistic trends, rules, comparative method, ect. which can easily be used to back-engineer beyond the small evidence found in names/Ogham, because we know where it came from, such as Indo-European which has already been reconstructed, and where it went, as you mentioned, the highly knowledgable field of Medieval Irish... BUT we can never say 100% that something is certain because that is why it's theoretical and hasn't been published or become widely known, that's why it's interesting and challenging, but to use the logic of something not conforming to the high level of authoritative evidence necessary in academia- that's an exercise in futility! As I said before, it's not a bad idea to be conservative and only assert what can be proven this way 'til sunday, but the people who do that don't use Primitive Irish whatsoever because they're afraid to make an error and that is boring and the opposite of progressive. The whole point of making a historical modification for a video game like this is taking the best of both worlds, element A (the inaccurate fake "axe-man" type formation of names which are necessary for use in a video game, as Urnamma mentioned) where units are composed of large groups of clones, and element B the most accurate historical information available (even if there is NO information) what can be surmised through close study of what is known and good, educated guesswork. To have medieval or vanilla alternatives just because of the idea of possibly being wrong in some way or harshly judged by academia is not an option- purposeful misrepresentation is the opposite of what anybody in EB intends, even if someone is not perfect and an error slips by. We appreciate feedback and constructive criticism but to insult people simply because you disagree or even if you're right about a point is bad form, plain and simple... even if you don't like how Ranika or Anthony did something, you have no basis to attack their agenda or expertise, especially by the paltry evidence used thus far. Even if there was good evidence, just don't do it- it makes everything you wrote a waste of time because everybody is so irate because of the tone and wording. Humility is not necessary (although helpful- it's a social skill thing) but having respect IS necessary. You are of course free to disrespect whomever you want in this world, but you will subsequently most likely be disrespected in turn because of that- so don't be suprised by the reaction. One might ask: "why should I have to tip-toe around the subject when I am right, I have credibility, and the floor is open to debate?" The answer is this: the forum and conversation in general include social animals who have feelings and attitudes that must be taken into account even if facts speak for themselves, because we are not computers fighting over calculations, we are discussing, we are philosophizing, we are interacting- certain rules apply. Simply because it is easier to throw stones in this electronic medium, that does not validify bad behavior. I can especially say this because I bitch all the time on these forums and knowingly press the limits of toleration and disregard social convention at whim, but I also understand what effect that has... and I by no means expect to persuade people afterwards. :pokes Urnamma: some of us can be cuddily bears in the right circumstances, but if our snuggle softs are pushed we won't sit idle... anyways, mania aside, the point being objectivity and respect are key... if you wish to convince us do so with a battery of evidence where logic drives home any doubt and do it methodically and appropriately with each element (such as each unit name) and you can see changes take place, rather than repeatedly have to address posts concerning attitude and intent

Perhaps I can explain my arrogance. If these were matters that were in debate, or that not many were aware, by all means i would be threading softly, as I would not expect that many would no that. But however, when people claim to be experts in an area, yet the information they produce contravenes basic knowledge of the Irish language, or of Irish literal narrative, that most Irish people possess, then I can be more confident, because there is a whole language out there that proves them absolutely and completely wrong. I would not be making these statements if I was not 110% sure that these were incorrect. I can assure, the fact I know what I say is objectively turhtful, not guessing, not deducing after years, but completely know that the information is bogus, allows me to be so confident, which is confused here with arrogance, that the information here is bunkum. I see you are a germanic scholar blitzkreig. It would be similar to you finding letters not found in anglo-saxon in a work claimed to be older than beowulf, with modern names, and words that make no grammatical sense in any era of the lanuage, words that are based on modern dutch or danish or old ostrogothic or norwegian or modern english english, and most importantly of all, this extremely important work, on which all their scholarship was based, has never before been mentioned, alluded to, published or translated before, but are waiting on a translation either by themselves or someone else. Would you not be incensed? Would you not be confident you were in the right? Would you not do your best to contradict the material?

[Ludens]

Riadach, I have no knowlegde of ancient Irish, but one of the basic rules of good debate is that you should attack the argument, not the person. You have violated this rule in pretty much every post by continuously attacking Ranika. Not just his position, but his person as well. Refrain from doing that. We'll judge Ranika's scientific status after this discussion is concluded.

[Riadach]

I have repeatedly attacked the information provided by Ranika. Repeatedly come the conclusion that it is entirely fraudulent, which unfortunately implies that the man is a charlatan. The implication is not my fault . I, however, suffered very personalised attacks by one member in particular, and his attempts to dispute me were extremely weak, ignorant and malicious.

So I give up. I've tried to assist you, yet have been met with nothing but negativity, character assasination and closed ranks. So go ahead, publish what you want, include what you want and completely ignore the incovenient truth. But do a bit more research on the matter yourself, I'm 100% certain, however that you with come to the exact same conclusion. These were never opinions I was stating, but basic objective facts. Ignore at your peril.

Remember, it was not for self-gratification i approached this site, and it was with great reluctance I did so. So have your emperor, and continue admiring his new clothes.

Goodnight to you all.

P.S. At the beginning, I didn't even know who was your celtic expert. It was his knowledge i was confronting not his person. But IIRC correctly, he also contributed to Age of warlords and fanatics and made equally incredulous historical and linguistic claims for Ireland in the early middle ages, which I also tried to confront.

[Urnamma]

I have repeatedly attacked the information provided by Ranika. Repeatedly come the conclusion that it is entirely fraudulent, which unfortunately implies that the man is a charlatan. The implication is not my fault . I, however, suffered very personalised attacks by one member in particular, and his attempts to dispute me were extremely weak, ignorant and malicious.

So I give up. I've tried to assist you, yet have been met with nothing but negativity, character assasination and closed ranks. So go ahead, publish what you want, include what you want and completely ignore the incovenient truth. But do a bit more research on the matter yourself, I'm 100% certain, however that you with come to the exact same conclusion. These were never opinions I was stating, but basic objective facts. Ignore at your peril.

Remember, it was not for self-gratification i approached this site, and it was with great reluctance I did so. So have your emperor, and continue admiring his new clothes.

Goodnight to you all.

You have repeatedly been mean spirited, engaged in personal attacks, and had an aloof arrogance that almost rivals that of certain politicians. At first, I was genuinely concerned, and indeed I still am. I am neither a malicious nor mean spirited person, though I can be, when someone viciously attacks particular people.

The -text- nonwithstanding, the equipment was certainly there, and was placed on the unit. The equipment is largely derived from native finds placed together in areas where Iberian migration took place, whereas the similar unit in northern iberia had similar equipment finds.

You may act aloof if you wish. You may act like a martyr if you wish. The fact that you will not elevate this above personal attack says something, methinks.

[antiochus epiphanes]

I have repeatedly attacked the information provided by Ranika. Repeatedly come the conclusion that it is entirely fraudulent, which unfortunately implies that the man is a charlatan. The implication is not my fault . I, however, suffered very personalised attacks by one member in particular, and his attempts to dispute me were extremely weak, ignorant and malicious.

So I give up. I've tried to assist you, yet have been met with nothing but negativity, character assasination and closed ranks. So go ahead, publish what you want, include what you want and completely ignore the incovenient truth. But do a bit more research on the matter yourself, I'm 100% certain, however that you with come to the exact same conclusion. These were never opinions I was stating, but basic objective facts. Ignore at your peril.

Remember, it was not for self-gratification i approached this site, and it was with great reluctance I did so. So have your emperor, and continue admiring his new clothes.

Goodnight to you all.

P.S. At the beginning, I didn't even know who was your celtic expert. It was his knowledge i was confronting not his person. But IIRC correctly, he also contributed to Age of warlords and fanatics and made equally incredulous historical and linguistic claims for Ireland in the early middle ages, which I also tried to confront.

oh give me a break, youve just wanted attention and to martyr yourself since youve been here, my god i remeber that flame you posted in the gaelic armor thread,(before you edited it) but you can look in here and see for yourself how much of a ass youve been here:

This is obviously untrue, since such a tract doesn't exist. As a historian, I'd find it hard to trust someone who would make up a written source,
.

Anyone with a basic understanding of Irish literature would know that, so why does Ran not?

If you wish to ignore my contribution here, by all means do, but if however someone else comes along with similar or better qualifications with similar opinions, be sure to remember what I have said.

so-called written sources listed for these. As a historian (kinda), I adhere to the caveat, that if one source is bogus, the writer is not to be trusted for anything else.

Well, I do not wish to accuse anyone of such either. I am merely presenting the facts as they appear to me. Would you have preferred if I had kept quiet on the subject altogether? Would that have been in the best interest of your aims and mission statement?

This is accuracy for accuracies sake and your quotes above to in no way means or form exonerate Ranika's blind baseless assertions.

. But from the sounds of it, I still know a hell of a lot more than yourself.

if you wanted to help, you wouldnt of come in here and been an ass for no reason, other then to get attention, like other "historians" that do....

[Riadach]

Not arrogance, confidence. These were objective indisputable facts, there is NO ALTERNATIVE. As for personal attacks, show me the attacks that are not based on information provided? Viciousness, no not at all. Show me the attacks that were not concluded based on use of fact? Show me the meanspiritedness, show me the viciousness? And you, Urmama, certainly cannot throw stones in regard. In your above posts you treated me with the utmost disrespect and condescension and the only viciousness recounted on this thread is that shown by you towards me.

I do not wish to play the martyr. I was trying to inform, based on rather fundamental principles of the Irish language which I backed up with references, yet somehow this is not enough. Obviously I must be a liar with nothing better to do. Well indeed I have, and I do not wish to waste anymore of my time trying to argue undisputed facts to people who refuse to listen.

[Starforge]

Ah, the lost art of diplomacy and tact.


There are several ways to handle a situation like this, and IMO Riadach, you have chosen poorly. You could have merely ignored the incorrect and aknowledged placeholders, ignored the person's credibility or accuracy who placed them there and offered your expertise on getting them right regardless of what came before.

Instead, you pulled out your sword, climbed on the hill, and shouted to all comers that you were RIGHT. The primitives here were WRONG and anyone saying otherwise was seen as nothing more than a challenger to be defeated. If you honestly think that the folks here wouldn't have taken you seriously had you done anything less than throw down the gauntlet - well - all I can say is good luck at a job, in relationships, or in any social situation really.

As merely an outside observer and in no way associated with the mod - merely a player - it saddens me to lose someone who obviously has passion and expertise in and toward their field of study. That being said - I've had to let go a few competent Engineers simply because of their complete inability to work with others since teamwork is just as important as knowledge when working in a group.

[Urnamma]

I do wish to say that I have overreacted against the person, rather than the argument. For that I am sorry, and am indeed guilty of attack on some levels (though I contend not as badly as might seem from reaction). Still, this thread is a giant ball of personal attack on all sides, and is solving nothing that cannot be solved by other means. Ergo, it is closed.