Question (on Goidillic units and names)

[Riadach]

Perhaps offering your own thoughts would help ease the bitter pill of criticism, eh? I can't say with complete certainly but I believe that the names may be wip (as everything is in EB), so again if you have something better to offer we will gladly look at it. I mean, how else can we respond? You obviously feel strongly that our approach is wrong here, so perhaps offering an alternative vision would be helpful.

That is a fair point. Yes I would be more than willing to provide some expertise in the area of linguistics and history if that helps.

AFAIK, the cycles that appear in our quotes come from unpublished work, work that a former team-member was able to see (either because he new the translator or because he was working on translating the text himself - I can't remember). As to their origin, I do not know, but I have complete trust in the aforementioned member as to their authenticity.

I mentioned before, there are no legendary tracts yet to be translated. All that is left is poetry. And at that cycles are much different kettles of fish altogther. A cycle is any theme which has multitudes of literature written about it's central issue. For example the Ulster Cycle includes all redactions of the Táin, Oidheadh Chlann Uisinigh, Oidheadh Chonchobhair, Coimpert Con Chulainn, Seirglige Con Chulainn. Such a cycle would involve a massive compilation of literature, which would be reflected in poetry ever since. I'm afraid it does not exist. It would not have gone under the radar.

Basically we are very receptive to well-structured, well researched criticism, but we too often come across people who claim to know better but have are mistaken or plain ignorant on the subject (not their own fault, blame pop culture). You seem genuine enough, however, and much of the aforementioned mistaken criticism comes against the Romans and other such famous factions. Perhaps offer a little of your own knowledge in return for a defence, eh?

Foot

I would be happy to provide such as much as possible. I have a copy of the Tain upstairs, as well as access to Trinity's libraries and databases. Considering I'm doing my postgrad in military imagery and motifs in Irish poetry at the moment, I think it would help me to help you as well.

[Riadach]

We talked about this about a month back. This is an excerpt of what our Celtic expert had to say on the issue:

Sorry, didn't see. He's pretty right, actually, none of those names were intended to stick (placeholders until more appropriate primitive Irish names could be used), but, they're not gibberish, they're just rather hastily done. However, I did try to get some of them changed a while ago, I forget who I was trying to get a hold of though. They need to be in 'Primitive Irish', but Ran didn't have a good theoretical dictionary for it yet (it's extremely fragmentary, mostly based on Ogham), but I got one a few months ago, though now I can't find it.

So there you have it. The names are placeholders for now; time is just needed to complete everything.

Also, the Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha unit was based on a grave find. Now, whether that was published or not, I don't know.

Unfortunately there is a rub here. Uachtarach Dubogaisciocha is mentioned in Luachmharleanbhan according to your site. This is obviously untrue, since such a tract doesn't exist. As a historian, I'd find it hard to trust someone who would make up a written source, on their archaeological sources. Very little is known about pre-christian warfare in Ireland, but as far as I'm aware it's based around chariots spears and roman-like shortswords.

As for a dictionary on primitive Irish, since most words can be traced to -o stems -i stems etc which is working backwards from Old irish, it's probably not an impossibility, but all the actual examples of primitive Irish we have are names on ogham stones. But if Ran can't handle modern irish, then he's pretty much screwed for old and primitive Irish.

[abou]

Unfortunately there is a rub here. Uachtarach Dubogaisciocha is mentioned in Luachmharleanbhan according to your site. This is obviously untrue, since such a tract doesn't exist.

...or it does and it just hasn't been published yet like so much material out there. You would be surprised as to what is sitting around in the basement of a museum.

As to the rest you wrote:

[Foot]

I mentioned before, there are no legendary tracts yet to be translated. All that is left is poetry. And at that cycles are much different kettles of fish altogther. A cycle is any theme which has multitudes of literature written about it's central issue. For example the Ulster Cycle includes all redactions of the Táin, Oidheadh Chlann Uisinigh, Oidheadh Chonchobhair, Coimpert Con Chulainn, Seirglige Con Chulainn. Such a cycle would involve a massive compilation of literature, which would be reflected in poetry ever since. I'm afraid it does not exist. It would not have gone under the radar.

I'm afraid that you've just called one of our most respected members a liar, and a falsifier of information. Not a good way to start, really. Ran, unfortunately no longer in our group due to personal reasons, is a world-class scholar, whose depth and breadth of knowledge is vast and countless. Perhaps some old post of his will enlighten us here, but until any further information comes to light I would gladly put my trust in his knowledge.

EDIT: Oh, and I myself am a graduate, in philosophy in fact, and I know too well how little I have read on the subjects I have studied. To be frank, a graduate isn't really a position of honour any more - it can't be I've got one! - if you were a post-grad doing a thesis on this topic I would put my faith in your words. I do not meant to insult you in anyway, I have no reason to suspect that you are anything but a top-notch graduate, but I know full well how little can be read in the three/four years of a university degree, and outside of a university it is even harder to concentrate on academic study!

Foot

[Riadach]

I'm afraid that you've just called one of our most respected members a liar, and a falsifier of information. Not a good way to start, really. Ran, unfortunately no longer in our group due to personal reasons, is a world-class scholar, whose depth and breadth of knowledge is vast and countless. Perhaps some old post of his will enlighten us here, but until any further information comes to light I would gladly put my trust in his knowledge.

Foot

I apologise for that, but on the basis of all the other information, that has to be my conclusion.

[Foot]

I apologise for that, but on the basis of all the other information, that has to be my conclusion.

I know, and I can understand your sentiment, but you must understand that Ran is well respected amongst us and very dear to us. He has proven his knowledge and his worth on far too many occasions to count. Given that information I must disagree with you. If you had a paper or two behind you, or some concrete evidence in contradiction to Ran's work, then we would be more willing to see your ignorance of the cycles and the other citations that Ran has given us as more substantial proof that we need to take a further look. As it is, being a graduate, your lack of knowledge of the works that Ran cites does not outweigh the faith and trust we have put in him.

Yet this is only one part of your first question, perhaps we could focus on a more productive area such as the unit names?

Foot

[Riadach]

But surely his ignorance of the Irish language should prove that he could not in anyway way be translating an important medieval Irish tract? Try even entering the cycle of don into google? Surely some reference should be made to it in abstract? It doesn't exist and never has. Ask anyone is manawyddan welsh or Irish, and they will surely reply that it's the former. Surely any celtic scholar would tell the difference. In fact type both these names into google, mannanan as well, and that fact will be clear also. Ask any irish student, does the adjective precede or succeed the noun in Irish, they will tell you it's the later. So uachtarach dubgascocha, where uachtarach is the adjective, is wrong. Look up Mac William Burke uachtarach in google, they were a famous Irish Family (it may be under mac uilliam uachtarach), you'll find that uachtarach, the adjective here, is in the correct position, after the noun. Compare that to uachtarach dubgaoscacha. Look anywhere and you'll find uí is used as the plural from of ó or ua, and not to be found in individual nominative names. Perhaps this persons area of expertise is elsewhere, and he is merely pretending he is familiar with Irish circumstance, if that is a more comfortable thought.

[abou]

Dude, Google isn't the end all, be all of scholarly research.

[Riadach]

Indeed it isn't, but try the ulster cycle, the fenian cycle, the mythological cycle and the cycle of kings. Why would these come up and none else? It's actually an extreme misunderstanding of what cycle means in this context. They are not names for individual tracts but for broad collections.

[Foot]

But surely his ignorance of the Irish language should prove that he could not in anyway way be translating an important medieval Irish tract? Try even entering the cycle of don into google? Surely some reference should be made to it in abstract? It doesn't exist and never has.

That is certainly proof of nothing. Secondly, I never said he was translating, I gave a choice of two options. If he couldn't have translated it, then he certainly was in touch with someone who was.

I have no idea when it comes to unpublished work in the field of Irish literature, but you generally don't find articles published on unpublished material. It would hardly be fair for someone to publish work on a piece before the actual historian and translator working on the original piece has had a chance to comment. That was my impression of the academic world, and so I don't find it surprising that no reference is made on google. I am surprised that you think the lack of a reference on google is proof positive that it doesn't exist. It seems odd, indeed, that you imagine that a team, which does include academics with a lot more experience in this world than you or I, would overlook such an obvious way to judge an unpublished work's existence, if indeed it was such an obvious way. Unless you can call on something a little better than google, I really don't see where you can possibly take this discussion.

Foot

[Riadach]

That is certainly proof of nothing. Secondly, I never said he was translating, I gave a choice of two options. If he couldn't have translated it, then he certainly was in touch with someone who was.

I have no idea when it comes to unpublished work in the field of Irish literature, but you generally don't find articles published on unpublished material. It would hardly be fair for someone to publish work on a piece before the actual historian and translator working on the original piece has had a chance to comment. That was my impression of the academic world, and so I don't find it surprising that no reference is made on google. I am surprised that you think the lack of a reference on google is proof positive that it doesn't exist. It seems odd, indeed, that you imagine that a team, which does include academics with a lot more experience in this world than you or I, would overlook such an obvious way to judge an unpublished work's existence, if indeed it was such an obvious way. Unless you can call on something a little better than google, I really don't see where you can possibly take this discussion.

Foot

I'm resorting to rather easy elements of proving that these did not exist. But surely the reference to Manwyddan should be enough. Why would a welsh name and spelling be in an Irish tract? What about the luachmharleanbhan? Luachmhar is a modern Irish word, it does not occur in old and middle Irish. Why would a tract have this nameand thats ignoring the glaring grammatical deficiency that I mentioned above (luachmhar is the adjective)? What other sources has he quoted? Are they all unpublished?

It seems in this instance that the team have made a grave oversight in relation to Ran's research.