Question (on Goidillic units and names)

[Riadach]

We don't dig up periodically new tracts in Irish. The greatest find of late has been a psalter discovered in a bog, which was compared to the Irish dead sea scrolls. This was our first for a hundred years. Most of our tracts etc have been preserved down throughout history, copied into newer manuscripts and kept in private collections before all being bought up by universities and the Royal Irish Academies. There are no new discoveries in such tracts. What we have we have, and a completely new cycle, previously undiscovered, unpublished and untranslated tract, let alone a whole cycle which would cause a massive stir. Yet he has mentioned a few of these unpublished cycles. Most of the academic work in old Irish at the moment is new recensions or translations, or reviews, or a few lines previously ignored or misunderstood, or common themes or grammar. It is also impossible that characters in these supposedly Irish cycles, would have ys and ks in their names, letters that do not occur in the Irish language. Nor is it possible that whoever is translated these tracts is subsituting welsh names for Irish ones. Nor is it possible that there are tracts, Luachmharleanbhan, which although in Old Irish, have a basic misunderstanding for the Irish language, and involve modern Irish words. Ranika, however well versed he is in other languages, hasn't a clue about Irish beyond what he has picked out from a modern irish/scots gaelic dictionary. In fact try www.dil.ie, if you need proof.

[Riadach]

If you wish to ignore my contribution here, by all means do, but if however someone else comes along with similar or better qualifications with similar opinions, be sure to remember what I have said.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I could be wrong of course, but don't many old Irish (pieces of) literati happen to be private property, and wasn't most of it simply ignored as the said jar of Egypt - it being so common to find in Ireland?

You shouldn't take my word for it, obviously, since I am no expert on ancient Irish literati - or indeed anything whatsoever. Just thought I'd give you my :2cent:.

Also, noone is trying to ignore you here - and chances are noone will . P.V. Calicula merely stated "We have to agree that we disagree with eachother" only using a slightly different choice of words.

[Riadach]

I could be wrong of course, but don't many old Irish (pieces of) literati happen to be private property, and wasn't most of it simply ignored as the said jar of Egypt - it being so common to find in Ireland?

You shouldn't take my word for it, obviously, since I am no expert on ancient Irish literati - or indeed anything whatsoever. Just thought I'd give you my :2cent:.

Also, noone is trying to ignore you here - and chances are noone will . P.V. Calicula merely stated "We have to agree that we disagree with eachother" only using a slightly different choice of words.

That may have been true at the start of the 19th century, but it certainly isn't true now.

[antiochus epiphanes]

If you wish to ignore my contribution here, by all means do, but if however someone else comes along with similar or better qualifications with similar opinions, be sure to remember what I have said.

it seems youve gone from simply trying to help us to wanting to stir up a reaction from us....

[Riadach]

it seems youve gone from simply trying to help us to wanting to stir up a reaction from us....

I do not. I merely wanted to point this out. However, considering the reaction from many posters, I really shouldn't have wasted my time.

[Lowenklee]

Please take the following at face value, I don't wish to be percieved as "flaming" or "trolling"...

I wish to pose what I believe to be a fair question. Is it the best sort of practice to cite unpublished work that has yet to be subjected to peer review. It's frustrating not being able to access and scrutinize the material oneself and possibly a failing to rely so heavily on unqualified literary work. After all, Ranika is no longer with the team and able to offer further information pertaining to this literature correct?

I really would love to take a peek at that source material...although without a translation I suppose I'd get only limited use of it. However any information at all regarding the location of this literature, a name associated with it's handling, or at the very least a cross reference of some sort I think should seem reasonable.

On the other hand I suppose the EB team is under no real obligation to adhere to such a protocol and have every right to make that investment of faith in Ranika's research. Perhaps a disclaimer on the material might be appropriate? Moving on...

While changing units at this juncture would no doubt prove unpalatable to the EB team a change of unit names and splash screen quotes might be more doable and hence make this thread a more worthwhile debate in that direction?

My humble opinion is offered only as I myself have wondered often about the the "Cycle of Don" and ect...no insult or distasteful inferences are intended.

[Frostwulf]

[/quote=Riadach]I do not. I merely wanted to point this out. However, considering the reaction from many posters, I really shouldn't have wasted my time.[/quote]
You didn't waste your time. Your presentation may have put off some but your information was welcome. I have to admit one item that puts me off as well is that information is not very forthcoming, and understandably so in some instances. I know the EB team has been busy and do not have time to spend here on the forums. I do wish that they would address some of the items that keep popping up such as the Gaesatae and put down the resources they have. Like you Riadach there are many who do have access to materials so I do have a problem with the "hard to get material" reply.
I hope you will consider to continue posting and perhaps answer questions that others may have. I personally hope you will be able to back up your answers with references, I try to do the same.

[Riadach]

Well the problem may lie in that fact that the Irish historical community and archaeological community, chooses to ignore mythology and legendary sources for an understanding of early Irish military, something I have come across when studied for my current thesis. Such caution may be welcome, as for example when you read carpat serrda, a scythed chariot you have to wonder, is the author referring to something in his own experience, or is he familiar with Roman and Greek historical translations such as Togail na Trai(the sack of troy) or In Cath Cathardha(Lucan's Bellum Civile). Even if it is true that it is his own experience, one cannot necessary project it back 800 years. Although frequently called mythology, the original versions are in fact literature. The Táin Bó Cúalnge for example seems to be a recension of the Táin Bó Fraích from the 7th century (plagiarism was not a problem for Irish monks), replaced their main character Fraech with Cú Chulainn, and ouila, we have one of the most important epics in Irish literature.

I will try to add more if possible. The carbad serrda shouldn't be too difficult to source, and there is a reference to a blanket on the horse which had metal patches sewn in for protection. That last one may be problematic, I think it's the same source, but I will need to research it, and hopefully occurs where the scythed chariot is described in the Táin. www.ucc.ie/celt has many historical epics published and translated and accessible. Also http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/chariot.htm

[Riadach]

found it, second paragraph here http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T301035/text021.html

[KARTLOS]

I do not. I merely wanted to point this out. However, considering the reaction from many posters, I really shouldn't have wasted my time.

it seems youve gone from simply trying to help us to wanting to stir up a reaction from us....

ive been really interested in what you have had to say so i think it was good you brought up these issues. it does strike me that the langauge errors that you have pointed out seem rather basic, i.e ones that no one with any working knowledge of the language should make. In addition i share your concern about these mysterious unpublished cycles. i think those who are defending this do not seem to understand the fundemental nature of what a cycle is - i.e it that it is a large body of varied work around a theme, not 1 book or poem. thus the idea that there could be un-translated cycles out there does strike me as being incredibly unlikley. you would have thought some hint of there existence would at least be present in the oral tradition.

however the eb team seem quite insulted by the suggestion that they may have been taken in by so knd of historical fantasist. as the person in question is not going to be around to defend himself , it would probably be best to accept for the minute that the individual perhaps overeached themselves rather than malisciously tried to trick everyone.

to move forward positively why dont you suggest language changes that you think would be more accurate. highlight specific things that you belive have such little foundation it would be necessary to remove them (unless solid evidence can be provided to the contrary), and suggest alternative quotes to replace the contreversial cycle quotes.

and to the eb team - dont you think it would perhaps be best to remove the contreversial cycle quotes for the present?

[Riadach]

I could indeed provide names for the goidilic units if they so wish. I don't think I (or anyone else for that matter) could provide you with the primitive Irish for such, but I could find old Irish no problem.

As for quotes, I'll leave this discussion with one.

Cú Culainn: 'Acht ropa airderc-sa, maith lim cenco beind acht óenlá for domun .’

‘Provided I be famous, I am content to be only one day on earth.’’