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Thread: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

  1. #1

    Default Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    First I have to say the game made a lot of pleasure. But how we got owned the last days by bugs is totally frustrating. We got so angry that we almost destroyed the room of my friend by hitting the chair to the ground and smashing the keyboard on the table.

    Bug or not: It's just f*ck*ng impossible that an enemy general can survive for about 5 minutes when he is the last man standing of his army and surounded by hundreds of soldiers? (We were Casse, enemy general was a Swêboz)
    But when our 3 chevron general dies because of one single blow by a little stone....I just can't help getting enraged
    And no, we don't play on VH on the battlefield!
    And this wasn't a single event it happened to us in almost every battle.
    So if we want our general to survive the battle, we have to evacuate him far away in the corner....We like Casse very much but we despise this c*ck-sucking weaklings of generals! Finally we stopped playing Casse, it's just frustrating. And if we beat a superior army with a heroic victory the game crashes mostly to desktop.

    We like our Mod and would like to play further, and so we would be very happy if you can balance Casse general, in their actual state they are just a burden and the role playing doesn't make any fun.



    Then after recovering from our frustration we begun a game with Baktria. It started very well but a new general problem appeared.
    In a battle in India one of our family members with no chevron(not the general) got like through hands of a ghost (german proverb) before battle started 3 golden chevron. First we were stunned and thought about compensating justice for all our Casse frustrations but of course it wasn't how it looked like. After fighting 3 seconds after the charge in hindus longbow archers and a decimated troop of hindus spearman (short spears) he lost over the half of his men and we had to evacuate him. BUT this was only the smallest evil. Our real 2 silver chevron general charged in the same group as the one before and we gazed as rooted (german proverb) when our general disapeared to the happy hunting grounds notabene as one of the first men of his unit. On the other hand a enemy general can charge into a phalanx and survive quite a long time compared to our general. And if, we wrote intentional not when, he dies as one of the last men of his unit.

    Generally you can really watching enemy generals taking blows and getting impaled by spears, fall to the ground at least 10 times. Ok there were stronger and weaker warriors but there were never supermen. Swebôz Generals are like broken out genetic experiment of the 3rd Reich to create the ultimate aryan superman.

    You can continue the list to the infinite as you like................but we two don't have any more tears to cry. We would like you to see the imbalanced general.

  2. #2
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    It sounds like you're pitting cavalry generals against infantry generals. The latter are hardier for a number of reasons but then niether the Casse nor Baktrian general is supposed to fight in prolonged melee.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Casse generals use chariots. So, you should keep them secure from missile fire - especially from stones. (Which is the most powerful type of missile apart from the various artillery kinds.)

    You may be interested to know that even in 272BC chariot warfare was rather outdated. On mainland Europe the nobles had switched to heavy cavalry - in the (Middle) East the chariot archers became horse archers. By EB's timeframe, the only use for chariots was as a shock element.

    Hence, you should keep your general as the ultimate reserve - waiting till even the enemy missile units have engaged in melee and only then ride out to pepper the enemy with missile from the back.

    The Sweboz uber general is all rather unfortunate: hitpoints of generals cannot be modded as for example lethality can. There is a base value which makes the general uber already, and there's nothing we can do about that. Your best bet would be to rout the enemy general, and have some (light) cavalry pursuing him - that's the easiest way to get rid of generals.

    EDIT: Also, never ever engage Indian longbowmen with cavalry. In India Archery is considered a 'noble' form of warfare - hence you've been fighting the Indian equivalent of Pezhetairoi or even Hetairoi. They may look like another archer who can merely 'run for the hills' when they find himself in melee; but they are in fact heavy infantry in disguise.
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 08-05-2007 at 19:24.
    - Tellos Athenaios
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  4. #4
    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    If you use 0.81a still (sounds like it), please upgrade to 0.81aV2. The Casse general's stats are improved. They're still not meant for melee though (they have a healthy stock of javelins, if you didn't notice). And a tip: Don't charge your general into guys with spears . The indian archers have a kickass sword and are no pushovers either.

    Anyway, your post is illogical. The enemy generals are all too powerful, and your generals are weaklings. That indicates that you are not playing on the recommended, Medium battle difficulty.

    And if we beat a superior army with a heroic victory the game crashes mostly to desktop.
    Please post about this in the bug reports subforum, adding the information requested in the thread linked in my sig.
    Last edited by bovi; 08-05-2007 at 19:31.

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  5. #5
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Firstly, don't insult us. We are a nice team, but insulting us, after all the work we've put into this project, just makes us slightly pissed off.

    Secondly, perhaps explaining your problem in a more relaxed manner will help us in solving it, and make you seem less like a rather articulate six year-old.

    Chariots: Do's and Don'ts.
    - A chariot was never meant for prolonged melee, or any kind of melee at all. Do not charge your chariots into a line and leave them there.

    - Chariots are very susceptible to missile fire, guard the with light skirmishing units until they can get behind an engaged enemy line.

    - Chariots are weakest against light infantry, do not charge light infantry unless you want your general to die.

    - Chariots are stronger against heavy infantry, but don't put chariots into melee. Instead having them charge through a unit of heavy infantry to break up the formation and then follow them with some light-infantry to take advantage of the gaps.

    - Chariots perform best behind enemy lines, throwing the javelins into the enemy and causing fear (which is an attribute they have). They also bolster friendlies morale, so use them accordingly.

    Bottom line, do not expect your chariots to survive in melee at all, nor against missile fire (slings are the worst). Chariots perform well when you used properly, and with some skill are the best generals to have (their main power comes when you don't commit them to a fight, which is great for a general).

    Concerning Generals in ... well ... general: If you charge them into a group of soldiers then they can die, they are not super-soldiers they are ordinary men. I believe we boost the HP of enemy generals (not sure on that) as the AI has a tendency to charge their generals directly into the fray. This wasn't a problem in vanilla where all bodyguards got 2HP, but in EB it does. The Ai lose their general very quickly otherwise, generally causing a mass panic and an easy victory. If you don't want your general to die, don't put him in danger!

    However, making out like this happens every single time is just plain false. I have lost my general in battle from a very simple charge only a handful of times, but I have played 100s of battles. I rarely commit my generals to the battle, unless the battle is not going my way and I need a decisive charge. You can also check the traits of a general, if some of this traits give him a penalty to his HP, then don't send him into battle, he will die.

    Foot
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    I nearly always have my generals doing just as active service as my other cavalry. (Yes I play successors, as of lately.) I mostly use them in assaults as the final blow that breaks the enemy - and I nearly always will use them against Parthian Cataphracts. (Because they chew right through my pikemen...)
    - Tellos Athenaios
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    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  7. #7
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    As Makedonia I tend to "Alexander" my generals, provided they're not sickly. Properly supported with Companions and Thessalians they usually come out in one major piece (Maybe none of them have fingers though). The last time I lost a general was killing Pyrhhos in turn two. I considered it a fair trade.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  8. #8

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Hi everyone,

    If you use 0.81a still (sounds like it), please upgrade to 0.81aV2.
    Where can I get this famous .081aV2 ??


    Also, I could not believe my eyes when I first found this mod and this forum (I only have it since the beginning of July 2007... damn...) because I have play every games and expansions of TW and altought M2TW is the most advanced, I did come back to RTW and RTWBI because of the time frame, which is much better

    So, keep up the good work guys and if V2 is not the latest version, please let me know which one is. Thank you again
    Proving the others wrong does not prove you right.

    Being against war is an evidence in itself but peace is nothing but an absence of wars.

    If capitalism, and all its vices, is the best humanity can do with its energies when at peace, it might as well start fighting again...

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot
    Firstly, don't insult us. We are a nice team, but insulting us, after all the work we've put into this project, just makes us slightly pissed off.

    Secondly, perhaps explaining your problem in a more relaxed manner will help us in solving it, and make you seem less like a rather articulate six year-old.
    We are sorry about that. Maybe whe shouldn't have posted right after this strange battle, and the title of the topic is too exaggerated. We didn't mean to insult you, and of course, we appreciate your work!

    We also thank all the posters. We learned a lot about the correct handling of generals, and we really didn't know about the Indian archers they're just looking like cannon fodder ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Foot
    Chariots: Do's and Don'ts.
    - A chariot was never meant for prolonged melee, or any kind of melee at all. Do not charge your chariots into a line and leave them there.
    We knew about that, and we never did it but he makes quite a lot use of his very nice special-trait which we explain later.


    Quote Originally Posted by Foot
    - Chariots perform best behind enemy lines, throwing the javelins into the enemy and causing fear (which is an attribute they have).
    We also know about that. We tried that a lot of times, but in 90% (and yes, this is really a correct percentage) he makes use of his oh so great special trait: "May charge without order". What happens then, we don't have to explain, because you already did this in your nice explanation about chariots (like what happens when charging into infantry and so on)
    Last edited by Rycalawre; 08-05-2007 at 20:15.

  10. #10
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    I don't really know what to say. I have used chariots very successfully, and so have many others. Perhaps a bit more practice will help you better control these rather unique units.

    Foot
    EBII Mod Leader
    Hayasdan Faction Co-ordinator


  11. #11

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Chariots are a bit difficult to use in 0.8x - their stats were never finished. We've adjusted their stats in our current internal builds making them significantly tougher, but they still should never be committed to prolonged melee. Really, with a few exceptions, none of our cavalry should be used in melee except with very weak infantry or equal or lesser cavalry.

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  12. #12
    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    You can give the unit contra-orders when they start charging.

    @Patriote Check out https://www.europabarbarorum.com.

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    To Topic Starter:

    Completly off topic, but who is "we"? You refer to "we" all the time! Are there two of you?


    Sorry, just caught my inquisitive streak.


    Mega

    "Break in the Sun, till the Sun breaks down"

  14. #14
    Member Member Thaatu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    I believe the "we" includes the friend whose room almost got destroyed.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Also, Sweboz and KH generals are very tough to kill due to thier tough infantry body guards.

    As a result, when I play either faction a lot of times I used the Generals as shock troops, or as flankers.

  16. #16
    Handler of candles Member Xehh II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Why are Casse General's Chariots anyway?
    They should be Champions, Heros, Swordmasters or Late Champions.
    A ha ha! Rainbows and unicorns! Rainbows and unicorns!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Nobles and such liked to ride to battle in chariots. It was a status symbol of sorts I believe.

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  18. #18
    Megas Alexandros's heir Member Spoofa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    They usually got off and fought on foot and used the chariots as taxi's of sort, so when they got tired they got on and drove back to rest, then got in at it again, sept you cant really do this in RTW.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Well not to be a jerk or anything buthe does bring up an interesting point.

    I have noticed that Cavalry generals are for some reason really hard to kill. I have seen Cavalry generals stand in the middle of 60+ Triarii alone and take out 10-15 of them by themselves before they die, and last a minute against them.

    I understand that the AI is dumb and its generals should be buffed accordingly, but having the AI's generals capalbe of standing in a prolonged meele by themselves with over 40 Heavy Spearmen is just ridiculous.

    Infantry generals are not so hard if you have good Heavy Cavalry and just pin them with a medium-heavy infantry unit and just use the charge-retreat-repeat strategy.


    Personally I have never had a problem with my own generals, but then I never use them alone (even my roman generals generally survive because I use them in conjunction with other units).

  20. #20
    Megas Alexandros's heir Member Spoofa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    use the same tactic with Cavalry generals, just use cavalry to hold them instead of Infantry.... works all the same.

    P.S. USE MEDIUM CAVALRY!

    when the general runs away (HE does.) then they can actually CATCH him and take him down, while heavy cavalry lag behind.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Yeah, I never had any problems with cavalry generals. Get them to rout and you can easily take them down with any sort of cavalry. I killed a lot of seleucid generals even with horse archers.

    The Casse generals are surley not the best bodyguard unit in the game, but they can be quite useful if you keep them out of melee action.

  22. #22
    Lover of Toight Vahjoinas Member Bootsiuv's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    The title of this thread is quite funny....imbalanced total war. I love how when some people get pnwned they blame the game, or mod, or the creators, or the gods, or rainfall in idaho on last tuesday, or any other crazy thing but they never stop to think about their own suckiness. :)
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  23. #23
    Megas Alexandros's heir Member Spoofa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsiuv
    The title of this thread is quite funny....imbalanced total war. I love how when some people get pnwned they blame the game, or mod, or the creators, or the gods, or rainfall in idaho on last tuesday, or any other crazy thing but they never stop to think about their own suckiness. :)

    No need to be mean to the guy's, A lot of games have gameplay faults that screw the player over, or bugs, or crashes.....

  24. #24
    Lover of Toight Vahjoinas Member Bootsiuv's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    I wasn't really trying to be mean....we all suck in our own unique ways. I happen to suck at R:TW, which is why I can relate. :)
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  25. #25
    Handler of candles Member Xehh II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoofa
    They usually got off and fought on foot
    Then why aren't they Infantry?
    Last edited by Xehh II; 08-06-2007 at 07:40.
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  26. #26
    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Because we want to portray that they were still using their chariots, even though most everyone else had moved to other warfare. It was a choice we had to make, given the limitation of the game.

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  27. #27
    Member Member Thaatu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    People, who don't already, should really consider playing with general camera. That way the general is more than just an elite unit without an upkeep.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaatu
    People, who don't already, should really consider playing with general camera. That way the general is more than just an elite unit without an upkeep.
    hum..... I will that a try.

  29. #29
    Member Member Thaatu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    The beginning may be tough, but if you train by using it in small "anti-brigand" battles first, and gradually make your way to bigger battles, it'll be natural and you don't ever want to go back to the "Kiowa view". My first general camera battle was as Carthage with two local iberian units against a rebel unit. Seeing my commander duke it out with the rebel commander amidst a mass of two hundred men got me hooked. I never use the other camera modes anymore, not even in siege battles.

  30. #30
    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Bugorum aka Rome Total imbalanced war

    Kiowa view? Why would you call it that?

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