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Thread: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

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    Default Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    http://www.totalwarblog.com/

    As outlined in the recent blog by Jason, there has been some significant re-balancing of unit stats for Kingdoms, the expansion pack for Medieval II. I am Jack Lusted, now a Games Tester at The Creative Assembly UK, but when I helped Jason by contributing to the balancing of Kingdoms I was a modder from the Total War Community.

    Although the last blog described the process involved in balancing Kingdoms, it did not say what has changed. In this blog I will aim to explain how the balance has altered from Medieval II, give examples of how specific units have changed, what most unit types should be used for, and how the balance varies between the four Kingdoms campaigns.

    The re-balance is not a small one, there have been some big changes. Almost all, if not all of the units have had changes to their stats. Some minor, some major. This is to reflect the fact that the whole balance of the game has been re-examined.

    The really big change is to cavalry. Cavalry unit sizes are now smaller, and their stats have been dropped. They are now 30 soldiers on normal unit sizes, which means on huge they are 60. But before you all cry 'nerf!', let me explain what this means in-game. The smaller unit sizes makes cavalry more maneuverable as the size of cavalry units in update 1.2 proved to be a little unwieldy at times. Now you can use them more fluidly. And despite having their stats dropped, an increase to the mass of the mounts they ride means that heavy cavalry still pack a devastating punch from the rear or flank. This means that heavy cavalry have moved away from frontal charging wrecking balls, towards how they were used in the original Medieval: Total War - fast moving flanking units who pack a devastating punch. Even with a frontal charge, they can still wreak major damage upon non-spear, pike, or halberd troops.

    There have been several global stat changes. All armour values have been reduced by 2, and all shield values have been raised by 2. These changes are designed to increase the importance of shields in combat when charged, but make units more vulnerable from the rear. Most units without shields have also received a boost to their defense skill so they have not been weakened in melee. The exception being missile units but they now have greater accuracy and therefore more deadly projectiles, so it balances out.

    An example of one of the units that has had major changes to its stats are the Zweihanders. In update 1.2 this unit had the following stats:

    Attack: 14
    Charge bonus: 6
    Attack attributes: none
    Armour: 7
    Defense Skill: 4
    Cost: 680

    In Kingdoms their stats have been changed to:

    Attack: 15
    Charge bonus: 9
    Attack attributes: armour piercing (only counts half target armour when attacking)
    Armour: 5
    Defense Skill: 8
    Cost: 520 (390 in Americas where all unit costs are lower. More on that later)

    Quite a big change as you can see. Now they are true shock troops who have a very powerful charge. With the changes in unit stats, there has been a redefining of how some unit types are used. I'm going to go through and try and cover every unit type and how they should be used in Kingdoms.

    Heavy cavalry - no longer sweep all before them in frontal charges. Spearmen, pikes and halberds can all stop frontal charges from them, and heavy infantry are better at resisting them. However heavy cavalry still deliver a punch that can't be beat to the rear and flanks of other units, which combined with the fact they're cavalry, means they can get into positions which allow them to deal the hammer blow. Rear and flanking charges also come with morale penalties to the enemy so they're great at routing parts of the enemy line.

    This has proved to be a more fun balance, and one that offers better for gameplay. Do not think that heavy cavalry are now underpowered, they are not. For instance in the Crusades campaign, knights are crucial to t he Kingdom of Jerusalem. No other unit can match the maneuverability, impact of charge or morale effect from a charge that heavy cavalry has. They're not nerfed, they just have a different use now.

    Light cavalry - fast and maneuverable - they should be used for dealing with skirmishers, routers, horse archers and possibly rear charges into infantry if the infantry is engaged.

    Horse archers - with the improved missile accuracy and smaller more manageable cavalry unit sizes, these guys are as deadly as they should be. Vulnerable to archers and faster light cavalry.

    Elephants - no major changes here, still the wonderfully fun point and click weapons of destruction they've always been. Just like before flaming arrows, artillery, javelins etc. are the counters to them.

    2 handed swordsmen - all 2 handed sword units have gained the armour piercing ability and similar changes to the Zweihanders. They are now perhaps the best shock infantry in the game, but are vulnerable to missles and cavalry, and will suffer heavy casualties in prolonged melee. If used in conjuction with sword and shield infantry to exploit the damage done by the 2 handers charge, they should be able to breach most battle lines.

    2 handed axe / polearm units - these guys have been made tougher in melee, and have had slight tweaks to their attack stats. They can now survive better in melee and deal out lots of damage on the charge. Think of them as infantry versions of heavy cavalry. Vulnerable to missiles and cavalry charges.

    Spearmen - their main use in Kingdoms should be as the most common anti-cavalry unit type, but with the boost to their attack, they can also take on other infantry a bit better. But as always suffer from the penalties they get from having the spear trait so will be outclassed by other infantry.

    Pikemen - the specialist anti-cavalry unit. With much higher mass in Kingdoms no cavalry charge can beat them frontally, and they can also deal with infantry slightly better too. Very weak when flanked and not as good as spears against other types of infantry.

    Halberds - they have received boost to their attack values and to mass, so they are better against both cavalry and infantry. Good assault troops, but slow moving and vulnerable to missiles.

    Halberds without spearwall - from instance Janissary Heavy Infantry. Have had boost to their attack and defense stats and reductions to cost. Great shock troops but can also do better now in prolonged melee.

    Sword and shield infantry - no big changes here, these are still the best prolonged melee infantry unit, and probably the best all round unit type. There is now more variation between units like dismounted Feudal Knights and Dismounted Chivalric Knights.

    Missile infantry - have been weakened in terms of their melee abilities slightly, but this is compensated by their increased missile accuracy will become more important due to the higher number of casualties they can inflict with their missiles.

    Whilst the overall balance for each of the Kingdoms campaigns is the same, there are differences between each campaign for game-play reasons.

    In the Teutonic campaign, all cavalry units are stronger with higher secondary attacks. The Teutonic Order units are also stronger than equivalent unit of other nations, but this is balanced out by the fact that the elite units need to have a cetain percentage of catholicism in a region before they can be recruited. The Order is reliant on those troops to expand and further it's goals so this balances things and prevents the Order from becoming too powerful, too quickly. The Orders units also cost more because of their higher stats so things are also balanced out this way.

    For the Crusades, like the Teutonic campaign all cavalry are stronger with higher secondary attacks. But unlike the Teutonic campaign, the Crusader factions do not have superior troops compared to their Muslim enemies. Even so the Crusader nations will be fairly reliant on their strong cavalry to win the campaign.

    With Britannia it is spears that are the unit type that receive a boost. This results in a proliferation of good anti-cavalry units, so infantry will dominate the Britannia campaign. But cavalry are not completely negated, they will still be usable units, just not as powerful as in the Crusades or Teutonic campaigns.

    And finally in the Americas campaign, New Spain gets smaller units, but sword armed infantry and cavalry with 2 hit points, and a new generals unit with 3. This is to reflect the small numbers of Spanish troops used in the New World, and the extra hit points prevent the smaller units from being overwhelmed. Unit costs are also adjusted to reflect these changes, so overall most units are cheaper but Spanish units are about the same as in M2TW. The Native units will not be pushovers either, and will put up a strong fight.

    That just about wraps up my overview of the balance changes made through the unit stats and hopefulle, gives you an idea as to how you'll be adapting your tactics to use these changes in each of the four campaigns in Kingdoms.

    Regards,

    Jack Lusted
    Hope this is informative, and i'll try to answer as many questions as you guys have.
    Unit Design Lead

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Very informative, thanks.

    Will people have to buy Kingdoms to get the vanilla game re-balanced or will there be a free patch released at the same time?

    Regardless, I am looking forward to the rebalancing as much as to the new Kingdoms campaigns.

    I am a little curious about pikes though:

    Quote Originally Posted by blog
    Very weak when flanked and not as good as spears against other types of infantry.
    Does this mean that even frontally, pikes are not as good as spears against other types of infantry? I would imagine that frontally a phalanx would be formiddable even against infantry, but that it would be very weak if disordered or flanked.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Pikes aren't as good as spears against other infantry, their main role is anti-cav. They can hold off infantry, but once the infantry reaches their main line they will be slowly beaten as they are outclassed in close combat.
    Unit Design Lead

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Looks like some great work!

    I am curious though, does the rebalancing affect the main M2TW campaign, or just the Kingdom's expansions?

    Thanks in advance!

  5. #5
    The Brooding Emperor Member Valdincan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Looks good.
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    king of my kingdom Member DVX BELLORVM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Thanks for the info, Lusted, this is a great news indeed. I hope it will improve the gameplay. I'm especially glad that you (CA) decided to decrease melee capability for missile inf, and added AP for the 2H swordsman.

    I'm a bit sad that you lowered stats for heavy cavalry, but I guess it will improve realism.

    Maybe you should introduce a new trait, scarred_when_charged_with_heavy_cavalry , and give it to some low quality troops, and maybe archers. This would lower their morale and maybe start the rout when faced with heavy cavalry charge...

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    {GrailKnights} Member hoetje's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Nice post... my hopes are high for kingdoms
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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Its great to see that units will each have their own much clearer roles on the battlefield now. Army composition will now have to be a lot more balanced and realistic. I'm particularly glad to see the 2h-swordsmen being designed more as shock troops, it'll be fun seeing my Highland Nobles smashing into the enemy line with the Highlanders and Dismounted Knights filling the gaps and enduring against the broken enemy.

    One thing though, the difference between 2h-swords and 2h-axes/polearms could have been a bit more defined, for the sake of variety. Makes polearms the anti-armour unit, and leave the swords as the shock unit. This would make it beneficial to build realistic armies later on in the campaign with units such as Billmen to counter the more heavily armoured enemies; while units historically used earlier such as Highland Nobles would remain stronger in the early stages of the campaign.

    Also, I hope the consistency of cavalry charges is improved. In 1.2, if a heavy cavalry charge hits a lower class infantry unit, 75% of the infantry can die in seconds, which is maybe a bit extreme. On the other hand, probably 3/4of the time my cavalry run or walk into the enemy with their lances raised, then get bogged down and take heavy casualities trying to retreat.

    Still, sounds very promising. If only my PC would stop crashing with M2TW...
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    Member Member Zenicetus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lusted
    The really big change is to cavalry. Cavalry unit sizes are now smaller, and their stats have been dropped. They are now 30 soldiers on normal unit sizes, which means on huge they are 60. But before you all cry 'nerf!',
    NERF!!! Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

    I'll second or third the question about whether these changes will apply to the original game also, or just for Kingdoms? I haven't paid that close attention to Kingdoms as it's been in development, so maybe I missed that info.

    If it does apply throughout the rest of the game, I'm wondering if this won't actually be a nerf for Eastern armies that rely heavily on HA tactics?

    Or does the increase in missile accuracy balance the reduced soldiers per unit? If not, I can't see how it won't be a major change when you're playing (for example) the Turks in the original campaign. I guess it doesn't matter that much, if it's only for a more narrowly targeted balance aimed at just the Kingdoms campaigns.
    Last edited by Zenicetus; 08-07-2007 at 22:43.
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    Ricardus Insanusaum Member Bob the Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixrsng06
    Looks like some great work!

    I am curious though, does the rebalancing affect the main M2TW campaign, or just the Kingdom's expansions?

    Thanks in advance!
    Quoted for emphasis...

    Greatly appreciate the work going into this and am hopeful the rebalancing applies to the Grand Campaign too...

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    Member Member l3asu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    I swear to god if they make the Native Americans like the Aztecs in MTW2 online wise I will go scalping at creative assembely! lol

    but ya I'm really happy with the changes, Hvy cav in mtw2 are ridiculous leaving to overplayed knight unit factions and weak over priced muslim and orthodox factions.

    GO Kingdoms! Finally being able to play the Irish and Irpquois

  12. #12
    Amazing Mothman Member icek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    archers more accurate,better counter units, better spearmen, less men in cavalry - can we start talking about uber-england and much weaker nations based on cavalry but without ha. I see another polish petition to ca, poland is nerfed like hell.
    Last edited by icek; 08-08-2007 at 10:11.

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    Member Member Matty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    When is Kingdoms being released anyway?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    archers more accurate,better counter units, better spearmen, less men in cavalry - can we start talking about uber-england and much weaker nations based on cavalry but without ha. I see another polish petition to ca, poland is nerfed like hell.
    Not really. Whilst archers are more accurate they are weaker in melee now, so close the distance with them and they are done for. Cavalry units might be smaller but they are still powerful, and factions like Jerusalem in the Crusades are reliant on their heavy cav thanks to the extra mobility and punch they bring. And yes i suppose cavalry has been nerfed in it's frontal charge steamroller mode, but they are still hugely useful in battle thanks tot heir powerful rear andf flanking charges and mobility. Poland will not be weak, it's grerat cavalry like Polish Knights and Polish Guards will still play a key part in it's armies.

    Believe me if you'd played it you would know that cavalry are far from useless.
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    Amazing Mothman Member icek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    i dont mean only about cavalry but i mean about whole poland faction in compare to neighbours. Poland dont have long range archers so anyone bother about them only if they want stakes in army and so far only units changed will be woodmen and halabardiers that have right now a stunning defence =1. For comparison:
    - hre: zweihanders upgraded, horlon hope upgraded, its enought to make roast of polish troops in infantry battle.
    - russian: berdish, horse archers upgraded.
    - hungary: croatian axes, archers, horse archers, who know about battle assasins but even without it whey are better on foot and on horses.
    I see polish armies with 18 cavalry units and 2 artillery units after kingdoms.
    Last edited by icek; 08-08-2007 at 10:46.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    You seem to have missed the point that this is a complete rebalance. Ever unit has had their stats changed in some way. So Halberd militia do not have 1 defence anymore, they have 5 defence now. You cannot make judgements about what units will be like in Kingdoms as whilst i've tried to go into as much depth as possible in the blog, you will need o play Kingdoms to see just how much the balance has changed. It's not just a case of "these guys get more attack, those guys stay the same". Every unit has been changed in one way or another.
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  17. #17
    Amazing Mothman Member icek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    ok, as you wrote in crusaiders campain christian kingdoms will have very powerfull cavalry. are those correct stats for them :
    http://www.gram.pl/upl/artykul/20070803202046.jpg
    http://www.gram.pl/upl/artykul/20070803202033.jpg

    They look like a merchant militia with charging option.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Yeah those are the correct stats. Weak frontal charge, good rear and flanking charge(unfortunately the unit card does not show mount mass which makes charges for cavalry more powerful than they appear from that). Good in melee but vulnerable when bogged down.

    Also a question for you - have you played the Lands to Conquer mod?
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  19. #19
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Thanks for all the information Lusted!

    Just a quick question, you may not be able to answer it but I figured I'd ask anyway.

    Will the seperate features of each campaign be able to be used in one single one?

    For example, can I take the religious conversion from the Teutonic Campaign and the hero's from the Crusades and then put them in a seperate campaign? Or will the features be "campaign specific"?

    Also, the Teuton's hire via conversion, as you say, does this means you can now set a certain religious percentage in a settlement as a pre-req for any unit, or will that too be campaign and faction specific?

    Finally, and most importantly, can I bribe Kingdoms out of you, all these damn features have got me excited and I go back to Uni a few weeks after it comes out!
    RIP TosaInu
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Will the seperate features of each campaign be able to be used in one single one?

    For example, can I take the religious conversion from the Teutonic Campaign and the hero's from the Crusades and then put them in a seperate campaign? Or will the features be "campaign specific"?
    Well all the campaigns use the same .exe so i would guess so yes.
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  21. #21
    Amazing Mothman Member icek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    No sorry. I play mostly on vanilla and do it long enought so that ca have time to release new patch, expansion or another tw game :) . I also have polish version and dont really know how it would look with english mod.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Well that mod features an unofficial version of the Kingdoms balance in it. You could try that out to see what i'm talkimg about.
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  23. #23
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lusted
    Well all the campaigns use the same .exe so i would guess so yes.
    Fantastic

    It all sounds units will behave alot more realistically now, lets hope it all comes together!

    A side note, I do hope LTC continues if you still have the time
    RIP TosaInu
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  24. #24
    Amazing Mothman Member icek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Quote Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

    Also, the Teuton's hire via conversion, as you say, does this means you can now set a certain religious percentage in a settlement as a pre-req for any unit, or will that too be campaign and faction specific?
    I think it will be a little stalling element for Order to expand. Such situation like cartage have when fighting barbarians in rtw - if they want phalanxs from there they need to build another city level and buildings by themselves.

  25. #25
    Guest Gaius Terentius Varro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lusted
    Well that mod features an unofficial version of the Kingdoms balance in it. You could try that out to see what i'm talkimg about.
    So we're basically paying 30 bucks for a mod which will supposedly fix the game AGAIN?
    I am still waiting for the patch (after all the expansions) that will fix my RTW...

  26. #26

    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    So we're basically paying 30 bucks for a mod which will supposedly fix the game AGAIN?
    You misunderstand. Icek was asking questions about the balance, and i thought it would be best for him to try it for himself, and there is amod out that uses an unofficial version of the balance. The mod in no way, shape or form has anything else from Kingdoms in it.
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  27. #27
    Barbarian of the north Member Magraev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Quit whining guys - please.

    Kingdoms is more than a rebalance, as should be easy to figure out.

    Is it a new game? no - it's an expansion. I think it's great that Lusteds rebalancing goes into the expansion, rather than having to mod the game to get it to perform well.

    One could have expected more from the original game, but that was before Lusted joined the team, so don't complain to him about it.

    I'm sure it will still be possible to play Poland, France, Hungary, Byz or any other horse-reliant nation. Maybe the days of steamrolling frontal charges are over, but that is a good thing imho. If you wan't those days back just mod the game and give all polish units 3 hp and 20/20 attack/defence. You'll win easy... Remember cav is more than the visible stats. It's mass (that has been increased) and it's mobility.
    Nope - no sig what so ever.

  28. #28
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Temp-sticked

    Thanks lusted
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  29. #29
    Amazing Mothman Member icek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Well i dont need really try it to buy kingdoms and im not a polish nationalist to defend blindly something that i didnt see by myself, but i have a question about teutonic campaign: i like the idea of stronger cavalry in this campaign, in fact you need it to beat such abomination with fear factor http://www.gram.pl/upl/artykul/20070803204552.jpg but why poland isnt playable from the start and must be unlocked especially when danes are?

  30. #30
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

    Quote Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi
    Thanks for all the information Lusted!

    Just a quick question, you may not be able to answer it but I figured I'd ask anyway.

    Will the seperate features of each campaign be able to be used in one single one?

    For example, can I take the religious conversion from the Teutonic Campaign and the hero's from the Crusades and then put them in a seperate campaign? Or will the features be "campaign specific"?

    Also, the Teuton's hire via conversion, as you say, does this means you can now set a certain religious percentage in a settlement as a pre-req for any unit, or will that too be campaign and faction specific?

    Finally, and most importantly, can I bribe Kingdoms out of you, all these damn features have got me excited and I go back to Uni a few weeks after it comes out!
    Quote Originally Posted by Caliban
    Your talking about modding the Grand Campaign into Kingdoms here. I sat down with the programmers and talked about how possible this would be. We decided that it would be possible if the mod installer unpacked, then copied the required assets from M2TW into a fresh mod folder.
    Then you could fiddle it to work with the kingdoms exe. Modders would also need to do this in order to include the Kingdoms factions back into the grand campaign. And it would be one huuge mod folder But all quite possible.
    There's a fair bit of information on the subject in the last few pages of this thread; just do a quick search through for Caliban's posts and you should find some information on the modability of the expansion.
    From wise men, O Lord, protect us -anon
    The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions, a statistic -Stalin
    We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into the area -UK military spokesman Major Mike Shearer

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