Late French Cavalry: What's best?

[Flavius Gonzo]

So, I'm nearing the mid/end game in my first campaign francais. I just built my first citadel and I'm a little puzzled about which French Cavalry to use. It seems that there are 3 high end Cavalry units that are pretty similar:

- French Nobles (recruited at ANY citadel)
- Chivalric Knights (need 2nd highest stables)
- Lancers (need highest stables)

IIRC correctly (I'm at work now without the game in front of me), they are all pretty close to identical. All 3 have the same attributes (combat bonuses, good stamina, good moral, etc), and the stats are identical between CKs and FNs. Lancers actually have 1 point lower defense but they don't have a shield, so I guess this is probably better vs. missles? (How else does shield vs. armour defense come into play?)

This leads me to conclude that I'd be better off to hold off on building stables until after my castles have maxed out armorers, ranges, and barracks. But maybe I've missed something -- one factor might be which level of armor can be upgraded.

Anyone have any thoughts on the differences between elite French Cavalry and their relative value on the battlefield?

[icek]

http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Cavalry
three different types of armor, clotch, chain mail,plate mail

[Rhedd]

three different types of armor, clotch, chain mail,plate mail

Which makes absolutely no difference, whatsoever. (Other than lookin' purty. ^_^)

I don't have a good answer to the question, but that's not it.

[Flavius Gonzo]

Do they armor types affect what upgrades are available for the unit. IIRC correctly, the armor factory provides "advanced plate" -- does this mean that Lancers are actually a unit that can benefit from the amor factory?

What I'm really looking for here, is anyone who can tell me if there is a practical difference on the battlefield between these 3 types of knights. Is there any reason to work up to Chivalric Knights or Lancers when French Nobles are already available?

[Rhedd]

According to brandybarrel's FAUST (Faction And Unit Stat Tables), Noble and Chivalric knights are exactly the same, except Chivalric knights have a lower upkeep (250 instead of 320).

Lancers are exactly the same as Nobles, except that their defence is 11/5/0 instead of 8/5/4, and they get one armor upgrade at smith lvl 6, unlike Nobles and Chivalric, which get upgrades at lvl 4 and 5.

So, it seems the stats don't really point to any real difference whatsoever, except that Chivalric knights have a lower upkeep, and Lancers are more evenly armored.

Between Nobles and Chivalric knights, the choice is clear, assuming you have the proper stables. Lancers, in turn, are a very minor improvement, and their upkeep goes back up to 320.

Whee. ^_^

[khaos83_2000]

if all seems to be the same, i will choose the units that looks the coolest!
Must win with style !

[Rhedd]

if all seems to be the same, i will choose the units that looks the coolest!
Must win with style !

Now that's exactly what I think! ^_^

[Miracle]

Which makes absolutely no difference, whatsoever.

The reason why armoured horses are separated by barding is that I had a hunch that patch 1.03 will give them some differentiation. Based on Lusted's past and recent actions I believe this is the case.. It seems highly probable that horses with different barding will have different masses in Kingdoms and 1.03 a la LTC.

According to brandybarrel's FAUST

FAUST is known to contain errors. A good example is the fact that Lancers already have Advanced Plate and therefore cannot be uparmoured. In addition, FAUST lacks crucial information such as speed, environmental modifiers and availability.

To answer the GP's question:

Noble Knights:
-Citadel: 3
Chivalric Knights:
-Earl's Stables: 4
--King's Stables: 6
Lancers:
-King's Stables: 4

Their entries in the EDU:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type             Noble Knights
dictionary       Noble_Knights      ; Noble Knights
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_cavalry
banner holy      crusade_cavalry
soldier          Noble_Knights, 32, 0, 1
mount            mailed horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, knight
formation        2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square, wedge
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         13, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  8, 5, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex   8, 9, 0, 0, 5, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        6
stat_ground      0, -2, -4, 0
stat_mental      11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 930, 320, 130, 100, 930, 4, 230
armour_ug_levels 4, 5
armour_ug_models Noble_Knights, Noble_Knights_ug1
ownership        france
era 1            france
era 2            france
;unit_info        13, 0, 17

type             Chivalric Knights
dictionary       Chivalric_Knights      ; Chivalric Knights
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_cavalry
banner holy      crusade_cavalry
soldier          Chivalric_Knights, 32, 0, 1
mount            barded horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, knight
formation        2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square, wedge
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         13, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  8, 5, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex   8, 9, 0, 0, 5, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        6
stat_ground      0, -2, -4, 0
stat_mental      11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 930, 250, 130, 100, 930, 4, 230
armour_ug_levels 4, 5
armour_ug_models Chivalric_Knights, Chivalric_Knights_ug1
ownership        france, denmark, spain, sicily, slave
era 1            france, denmark, spain, sicily
era 2            france, sicily
;unit_info        13, 0, 17

type             Lancers
dictionary       Lancers      ; Lancers
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_cavalry
banner holy      crusade_cavalry
soldier          Lancers, 32, 0, 1
mount            armoured horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, knight
formation        2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square, wedge
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         13, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  11, 5, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex   11, 0, 0, 0, 5, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        6
stat_ground      0, -2, -4, 0
stat_mental      11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 930, 320, 130, 100, 930, 4, 230
armour_ug_levels 6
armour_ug_models Lancers
ownership        france
era 2            france
;unit_info        13, 0, 16

Now that you have all the relevant information, you can made a solid decision based on your particular needs.

[Rhedd]

My entire worldview is crushed by learning that FAUST has errors. ^_^

Well, seriously, that's kind of disturbing news. Guess I'll have to manually check my facts in the EDU, from now on, just to be sure.

I agree with you about the barding, by the way. I suspect that at some stage of development, the barding type made a difference, and it sounds like it might again in the near future. I hope it does.

[Flavius Gonzo]

OK, thanks everyone for the detailed info. It looks like it's a better strategic option during the mid game of this campaign to work up to better spears, swords, and missles. Lancers will have to wait until I'm in the end game when I have a booming economy.

QQ though, what does 'separated by barding' mean? I read Lusted's post regarding the rebalancing for kingdoms, but I'm just not sure what the 'barding' term means.

[Ciaran]

Barding is what the armour for a horse is called.
In M2TW there are different types, cloth (used by the Gendarmes and Feudal Knights, for example), cloth and chain mail (the Noble knights use that, I think) and plate (Lancers and Gothic Knights). Depending on the barding, the horses have a different mass rating, which affects how effective they are in a charge (the heavier the better, simple physics).

[Rhedd]

Barding is what the armour for a horse is called.
Depending on the barding, the horses have a different mass rating, which affects how effective they are in a charge (the heavier the better, simple physics).

Except that they don't.

You're right about what "barding" means, but at the moment, the type of barding a horse is equipped with makes NO difference to the unit.

It certainly should, and maybe it will in the near future, but as of patch 1.2, it doesn't.

As long as a horse has some armor (even cloth), it's the same as every other barded horse.

[zerathule]

As long as a horse has some armor (even cloth), it's the same as every other barded horse.

Are you sure this includes their moving speed ?
From my observations, Fast pony > pony > heavy horse > other mounts (i havent checked eastern armored, barded etc against each other).
Besides, the mass of a mounted unit is directly linked to the unit itself, not to the mount, or is there something i missed ?
What file contains the mount datas ?

[Rhedd]

Are you sure this includes their moving speed ?
From my observations, Fast pony > pony > heavy horse > other mounts (i havent checked eastern armored, barded etc against each other).
Besides, the mass of a mounted unit is directly linked to the unit itself, not to the mount, or is there something i missed ?
What file contains the mount datas ?

Sounds like your observations are correct.

I was saying that between armored mounts, there's no difference whatsoever. So, speed-wise, fast pony > pony > heavy horse > barded horse = mailed horse = eastern armored horse = armored horse.

Same goes for mass, but in reverse.

The mount stats are in (surprise! ^_^) descr_mount.txt. However, their speeds aren't determined there. Darned if I know where they are determined.

I got my speed information from here: http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Cavalry

[Miracle]

However, their speeds aren't determined there. Darned if I know where they are determined.

Most of the credit goes to CBR, dopp and R'as al Ghul. See this thread. I re-did CBR's tests to insure accuracy then converted the speeds to m/s.

[Rhedd]

Most of the credit goes to CBR, dopp and R'as al Ghul. See this thread. I re-did CBR's tests to insure accuracy then converted the speeds to m/s.

Ah. That's what I suspected. The speeds aren't actually in any file, and the speeds listed are empirical. Thanks!

[ReiseReise]

IMHO the idea is that you can build them in various places in a crunch when you really need them. Ok this place has only Citadel so i'll build Chivalric, this place has level 4 stables so i'll build everything i can, this place has Guild so i'll build Templars, etc. and i can build relatively equal knights in any one of many differently built castles when the enemy shows up in that particular area.

The small stat differences are not going to make a difference on the battlefield, your tactics will.