Best Scandinavian Faction

[Xehh II]

Which Scandinavian faction do you think's the best(Units, Economy, Start Pos.) From what i've seen they all have the same units, I could be wrong though. As for economy I think Swedish or Danish and Start Pos. I think Norwegians, even though it's poor, you can attack better.

What are your thoughts on the Scandinavian factions?
I'm not voting.

[Innocentius]

Denmark clearly has my vote. The three factions have the same unit roster, but the Danes have the best starting position and can wipe out Sweden and Norway within two or three turns in Early. In High, it takes only two turns to conquer all of Scandinavia, but the Swedes will remain in Finland (where Novgorod will devour them soon enough). The Danes also have a good opportunity to grab some of the HRE and invade the British Isles.

[macsen rufus]

I voted for Norway, as besides the v1 Vikings, they also have an early exploit which makes life easy:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

attack Sweden in the first year and they will retreat into oblivion without a fight

but apart from that the factions are very similar, and any one can take the others, and once all of Scandinavia is under your control, they are effectievly identical but with different coloured flags.

[gregori99]

I agree with Denmark, they have a good position and can expand northwards and around the Baltic. In my games as the Danes the Germans never once attacked me early.

[Martok]

Definitely the Danes. I find their starting position to be the most interesting of the three. I also like the fact that they can Crusade in XL (unlike the Norwegians & Swedes).

[Xehh II]

Can the danes really crusade in XL? That's cool i'll have to try that.

[Martok]

Can the danes really crusade in XL? That's cool i'll have to try that.

Yep. VikingHorde enabled Crusades for the Danes to reflect what's commonly referred to as the "Northern Crusades". I don't really know any details, but essentially the Northern Crusades consisted of the Danes (along with a few other kingdoms) making war against pagan Baltic states (such as Pomerania) in order to bring them into the Catholic fold.

[Kavhan Isbul]

All are fun, but I vote for the Swedes, as far as XL is concerned. The Norwegians seem to present the greatest challenge, but the above mentioned exploit ruins them for me. The same applies to the Danes, who have the best position anyway. This makes the game way too easy. Other than this, the Danes are the only Scandinavian faction that can Crusade, and I think they are the only Scandinavian faction, which gets Mounted Crossbowmen.
The Swedes do not have these options, but they have perhaps the greatest challenge, as everyone seems to hate them. Even the Lithuanians will go out of their way to sink Swedish boats in the Baltic, despite being allied, and for no apparent reason. However, once Denmark, Norway, Lithuania and Novgorod are gone, it is an easy and enjoyable game for a while, as there are no real threats, until a superpower emerges in the South an this coincides with the arrival of the Horde. Once the Horde is defeated, I usually get bored and I have never finished a Swedish campaign.

[christof139]

Yep. VikingHorde enabled Crusades for the Danes to reflect what's commonly referred to as the "Northern Crusades". I don't really know any details, but essentially the Northern Crusades consisted of the Danes (along with a few other kingdoms) making war against pagan Baltic states (such as Pomerania) in order to bring them into the Catholic fold.

at least it'd be a useful thing to do...

lol abou

'Northern crusades' in the main refers to the campaigns of the Teutonic Knights against the Baltic and Slavic Pagans; the Pomorze (Pommeranians), Preus (Prussians), Lithuanians, etc. 'Wends' is a general term used for many of these peoples.

One Danish King, forget which one, actually did go on a Crusade to the Holy Land. The Danes had maybe 10,000 troops and a large number of ships, and it seems that many of those ships were dragon ships or longships. This happened sometime in the 1100's or maybe around 1200, after the Horns of Hattin I do believe. The Danes took a port, Sidon, Jaffa, Acre, whatever, I forget, and they did it in fine style by assaulting the sea wall from their ships and going up and over very quickly. The physical size of the Danes I guess made an impression upon the other Crusaders and Muslims, as their large size and fierceness and ability is mentioned. Perhaps this occurred when Conrad and some Germans were there, can't remember now.

Chris

[Innocentius]

'Northern crusades' in the main refers to the campaigns of the Teutonic Knights against the Baltic and Slavic Pagans; the Pomorze (Pommeranians), Preus (Prussians), Lithuanians, etc. 'Wends' is a general term used for many of these peoples.

One Danish King, forget which one, actually did go on a Crusade to the Holy Land. The Danes had maybe 10,000 troops and a large number of ships, and it seems that many of those ships were dragon ships or longships. This happened sometime in the 1100's or maybe around 1200, after the Horns of Hattin I do believe. The Danes took a port, Sidon, Jaffa, Acre, whatever, I forget, and they did it in fine style by assaulting the sea wall from their ships and going up and over very quickly. The physical size of the Danes I guess made an impression upon the other Crusaders and Muslims, as their large size and fierceness and ability is mentioned. Perhaps this occurred when Conrad and some Germans were there, can't remember now.

Chris

10,000? That sounds like a huge overestimation. The number 1,000 or less is more likely considering the size of the population in Denmark at the time. The Crusade took place before Hattin, as the Danes were occupied fighting the Obotrites and other vends in the Baltic by the late 12th century. The most famous Scandinavian crusader is probably Sigurd Jorsalafar, a Norwegian king who went to the Holy Land in the early 12th century (Jorsalafar basically means "who travelled to Jersualem" and was a common term, not reserved for the king but applied to all who travelled to Jerusalem, both pilgrims and crusaders).

The "Northern Crusades" were exstensive campaigns, conquests and crusading against the eastern and southern coasts of the Baltic sea. The most famous theatre is of course the struggle of Fratres Militae Cristii and later on the Teutonic Order (in co-operation with the bishops of Riga and Bremen and the kings od Denmark) in modern Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Other areas of conflict were (as has been mentioned already) Prussia and Finland and Karelia/Ingermanland (mostly the kingdom of Sweden vs. the principality of Novgorod). Most people involved in the "Northern Crusades" were of German origin however, for example, the knights and soldiers in Danish Estonia were almost exclusively German (although the majority of the population was, of course, estonian).

Recently read a book on the subject (a very good one too, but it's not available in English so namedropping seems pointless).

[Roark]

Swedes in Early (weapon upgrades for Huscarles = scary)

Danes in High and Late.

[MJF]

Danes. Swedes too weak in early. Norway too poor.

[Martok]

Norway too poor.

I actually find Norway quite fun to play, but the problem is that they're pretty much a one-trick pony -- their starting position doesn't allow for much in the way of strategic flexibility. Because their starting lands are so poor, you can't afford to just sit around and build up first. The Norwegians really have little other choice except to expand immediately, and their most logical first target is the Swedes. Their strategy never really varies.

[Zain]

If you're ever actually played as the Danes and have taken over the entire Scandinavian Peninsula, Sweden eventually becomes your best economic province. I voted Sweden.

[christof139]

10,000? That sounds like a huge overestimation. The number 1,000 or less is more likely considering the size of the population in Denmark at the time. The Crusade took place before Hattin, as the Danes were occupied fighting the Obotrites and other vends in the Baltic by the late 12th century. The most famous Scandinavian crusader is probably Sigurd Jorsalafar, a Norwegian king who went to the Holy Land in the early 12th century (Jorsalafar basically means "who travelled to Jersualem" and was a common term, not reserved for the king but applied to all who travelled to Jerusalem, both pilgrims and crusaders).

The "Northern Crusades" were exstensive campaigns, conquests and crusading against the eastern and southern coasts of the Baltic sea. The most famous theatre is of course the struggle of Fratres Militae Cristii and later on the Teutonic Order (in co-operation with the bishops of Riga and Bremen and the kings od Denmark) in modern Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Other areas of conflict were (as has been mentioned already) Prussia and Finland and Karelia/Ingermanland (mostly the kingdom of Sweden vs. the principality of Novgorod). Most people involved in the "Northern Crusades" were of German origin however, for example, the knights and soldiers in Danish Estonia were almost exclusively German (although the majority of the population was, of course, estonian).

Recently read a book on the subject (a very good one too, but it's not available in English so namedropping seems pointless).

Only 1,000 or so?? I thought I saw a figure of about 10,000 but I believe you are right and have more info. on the subject. What was the port that they captured?? What I read was the Danes attacked the seawall from their ships an just swarmed up the wall and that was it. It was very impressive. Then the King went and visited a few places and returned to Denmark, or Norway as you point out and I may have definitely confused this. I will try and find what I read a good number of years ago. I have an Atlas of the Crusades and a few other things here at home. You sparked my interest, as this was an impressive feat, taking that port very quickly by assaulting the seawall from aboard ships, I remember this, but probably confused the Danes and Norwiegans.

Ahhhh!!! Hey, maybe the entire Crusader army was about 10,000 or whatever, that is what I probably read or guesstimated.

There is a recent book in English concerning the Northern Crusades and it is available at Amazon etc. In fact I think that 'The Northern Crusades' may be the title. It is supposed to be a vey detailed and excellent book. Quite a few English Knights and Squires etc. served with the Teutonic Order in varying capacities. Several books in English about this.

The German Knights of the Sword were also given the right to crusade against the Wends, but they were absorbed by the Teutonic Order of St. Mary's. There was also a small Polish order, the Knights of Dobryn (can't remember the correct name off-hand), that originally was instrumental in seeking aid from the Teutonic Knights against the Preus, and this order was also absorbed by the Teutonic Order.

Thanx for the info., Chris

[Innocentius]

Well, an army of 1,000 was quite a lot in medieval Scandinavia, especially if the army left home for what would certainly be more than a year. I don't remember which port, but I don't think you are confusing the crusades, as both Norwegians and Danes went on several larger expeditions to the Levant.

"The Northern Crusades" is, IIRC, an Osprey book, and from what I've heard (mainly from Swedish historians) it's so-so with the historical accuracy, although it's probably still worth the money and contains good plates.

The "Sword Brethren" (Fratres Militae Cristii) were formed after the wends/vends had been officially converted (early 13th century, by this time the vends themselves took part in the crusading), the person behind the creating of the order was bishop Albert of Riga (or maybe it was Albrekt, don't remember) who needed permanent military aid in Livonia. Interestingly enough, they were treated as lower class knights, and different from other fighting crusader orders like the Templars enjoyed no popularity; it was an organization for poorer german knights and nobles.
I think the name of the other order was Dobrzyn or something like that, yes. The order consisted of eighteen knights at its peak

[christof139]

Well, an army of 1,000 was quite a lot in medieval Scandinavia, especially if the army left home for what would certainly be more than a year. I don't remember which port, but I don't think you are confusing the crusades, as both Norwegians and Danes went on several larger expeditions to the Levant.

"The Northern Crusades" is, IIRC, an Osprey book, and from what I've heard (mainly from Swedish historians) it's so-so with the historical accuracy, although it's probably still worth the money and contains good plates.

The "Sword Brethren" (Fratres Militae Cristii) were formed after the wends/vends had been officially converted (early 13th century, by this time the vends themselves took part in the crusading), the person behind the creating of the order was bishop Albert of Riga (or maybe it was Albrekt, don't remember) who needed permanent military aid in Livonia. Interestingly enough, they were treated as lower class knights, and different from other fighting crusader orders like the Templars enjoyed no popularity; it was an organization for poorer german knights and nobles.
I think the name of the other order was Dobrzyn or something like that, yes. The order consisted of eighteen knights at its peak

Oh heavens no!!! The recent book 'The Northern Crusades' I am speaking of is not a short Osprey title!!! Not an Osprey at all, although Ospreys can be good even in their brevity.

I found when Danes participated in the Crusades from 'A History of the Crusades, Volume III, the kingdom of Acre and the Later Crusades', by Steven Runciman, 1st pub. in 1951. Uses many original sources, both Muslim and Christian, and the works of some great American historians that gathered much together over the years.

In the autumn of 1189, when King Guy and Conrad were besieging Acre, many Crusaders from across Europe arrived to help and did so before the arrival of the Kings of England and France. Some of these Crusaders came from Denmark and even Hungary. When Frederick Barbarossa's army marched it also contained many Poles and perhaps a few Danes. Remanants of his army eventually also made it to Acre.

The Norwegians had a large fleet and a good number of men, perhaps 10,000, don't know (and 10,000 may be to high a guesstimate), that arrived in the Holy Land in 1250, and these are the fellows I believe that took that port. I am still looking for a description of this. There could probably have been a good number of Danes and Swedes with the Norwegians, could very well be.

In 1217 - 1218 the 'Northern Fleet' went to the Holy Land, and this may also be what I am thinking of, as this Northern Fleet was mainly Scandanavian. King Andrew of Hungary also arrived in the Holy Land in 1217 and left in January, 1218.

There is another book I once had, titled 'Iron Men' or something like that, and the description of the Norwegians (most likely they rather than the Danes as you point out) and perhaps other Scandanvains taking that port may be in it, but I just looked for this book and can't find it. So, I may have to find and buy it again in paperback.

Chris

PS: Yes, Dobrzyn it is, and Dobrin was also used. Small number of Knights but they owned some lands and had some retainers. Same with the teutonic Order, there were never a large number of full Brother Knights, and that was a high position, and most members and retainers were 'half-brothers' and lesser, and other Knights from mainly England that served with the Order for a short time.

Dobrzyn Castle, located on the Vistula River, once belonged to The Knights of Dobrzyn or Dobrin. They were called "The Knighthood of Christ" in Livonia. The "Order of Dobrzyn" was founded, in 1228, by the Cisterian Bishop Christian of Prussia, and Duke Corrado of Mazovia. The Order was approved by the Pope in 1228. The Order took its name from the castle of Dobrzyn. By 1235, the Order was incorporated into the Teutonic Knights, and the Order disappeared by 1240.

PPS: Here is a link to 'The Northern Crusades': Second Edition (Paperback) by Eric Christiansen. This may be the same book you were speaking of and said wasn't available in English, I don't know.

http://tinyurl.com/3anrqd

The book 'The Knights of the Order' is a good one about the Hospitalers, mainly dealing with Malta and later times I believe.

PPPS: In 1103, King Eric of Denmark went on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land, so this may be another possibility of when the taking of a port in the Holy Land by Scandanavians occurred. SOMEONE here must know of this incident!!! The Muslim port was I believe under siege and couldn't be taken by land, so the Scandavians sailed to the port and into the harbor and up the seawall they went lickety-split, and the port was captured by them very quickly, instantly more or less. And, in 1189 Danish and Frisian ships blockaded the port of Acre when Guy and/or Conrad were besieging it. However, I think it was a Norwegian assault that I am thinking of. I am going to keep looking and if someone knows please post.

Chris

[Haccapelite]

Definitely the Danes. I find their starting position to be the most interesting of the three. I also like the fact that they can Crusade in XL (unlike the Norwegians & Swedes).

Oh boy, i really wish i'd knew that a month ago when i was thinking which Scandinavian faction would be the best. I eventually chose Sweden, but Crusading would have really been a nice addition.

(weapon upgrades for Huscarles = scary)

Yep, i agree with that, even without weapon upgrades Huscarles can chop nearly anything they can catch into tiny peaces. (i had one unit of them kill about 270 enemies and take only 15 casualities in some earlier campaing.)

[christof139]

OK, I found what I have been looking for.

King Erik of Denmark went on Crusade with 3,000 men but died on the way to the Holy land in 1102, but his wife and queen Bothilda sailed on and joined the other Crusaders at Jaffa in resisting the Muslims.

A short time later, King Sigurd of Norway, left Bergen, Norway with at least 60 ships and about 10,000 men, about 160 per ship on average. These Norwiegans took the port of Sidon very quickly from the harbor; they went up and over the seawall rather quickly. The Muslim residents were allowed to go free with all the possesions they carried, but much was left behind and a great amount of loot was taken at Sidon. Then they assisted in the attempt to take Tyre but the Crusaders failed here. The Norwiegans returned to Norway after an absence of nearly 10 years. On the way to the Holy Land they wintered in England, and then went to Spain/Portugal and captured towns and defeated some Muslims there, then on to the Med. where they raided Muslim islands and stopped in Sicily for some time where they were treated grandly by the Normans.

I had to buy a used copy of 'The Crusades, Iron Men and Saints, by Harold Lamb to find this info.

This book also refers to a Scandavian contingent at the Siege of Antioch in 1097-1098 that had a portion of the siege lines assigned to it. So, this contingent may have been perhaps 2,000 or so strong, and perhaps northern Germans and Frisians were also part of it. I think Fulcher states this in his chronicle and is where Lamb got the info.

Chris

[Norkus]

The Norwegians should really be allowed to crusade in this game to reflect King Sigurd's campaign starting in 1108. I have alse seen the reference to 60 ships, although 10 000 men seem to be a little exaggarated. One should bear in mind though that probabaly a minority of these men were Norwegians or Scandinavians as Sigurd spent the winter in England on his way south and probably recruited there, possibly also in France.

Sigurd actually took the land route back again, via Constantinople, Hungary and the German/Bohemian lands.

Norkus.

[Noir]

You can easily "allow" any catholic faction to crusade with a little bit of home modding.

In the buildprod.txt file find the crusade marker and in the faction association column insert the faction you wish.

Noir

[christof139]

The Norwegians should really be allowed to crusade in this game to reflect King Sigurd's campaign starting in 1108. I have alse seen the reference to 60 ships, although 10 000 men seem to be a little exaggarated. One should bear in mind though that probabaly a minority of these men were Norwegians or Scandinavians as Sigurd spent the winter in England on his way south and probably recruited there, possibly also in France.

Sigurd actually took the land route back again, via Constantinople, Hungary and the German/Bohemian lands.

Norkus.

Thanx for the info. You're right, a good possibility that English, Scots, Frisians, and north Germans joined King Sigurd. Maybe even some Irish folk joined this Crusade and others.

Chris

[Norkus]

You can easily "allow" any catholic faction to crusade with a little bit of home modding.

In the buildprod.txt file find the crusade marker and in the faction association column insert the faction you wish.

Noir

Thanks a bunch!

[professorspatula]

Danes. When they invade they bring their Bacon sandwiches with them.

[Passatempo]

i've only played as the Danes, and have found it fairly easy to defeat both the normans and the sweedish...
and from what i've seen, they are the only ones who can crusade, so my vote goes for them