A question for Christians.

[Divinus Arma]

If one never hears the Gospel, do they get sent to hellfire and damnation, even though they never had an opportunity to be saved?

[Ice]

If one never hears the Gospel, do they get sent to hellfire and damnation, even though they never had an opportunity to be saved?

Eh, I'm not a real hardcore Christian (not really even soft core), but I'd assume no. That would just be stupid.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I imagine the protestants have some heretical ideas on this () but the catholic tradition was no - still subject to original sin, such people could not enter heaven but would go to a place known as Limbo - jolly pleasant, a bit like the local country club, but not the full paradise deal.

Under the current Holy Father, there's a debate going on about the actual nature of limbo and indeed its very existence as a separate state from paradise.

[shlin28]

But what if they were very bad people but never hears the Gospel?
And a friend in my school, when I asked the same question, said that everyone goes to the heaven/hell/limbo/next life of their own religon.

[Ice]

But what if they were very bad people but never hears the Gospel?
And a friend in my school, when I asked the same question, said that everyone goes to the heaven/hell/limbo/next life of their own religon.

Well, I assume if they are evil, they go to hell.

[Sigurd]

If one never hears the Gospel, do they get sent to hellfire and damnation, even though they never had an opportunity to be saved?

The LDS doctrine on this is actually pretty fair...

[Ironside]

But what if they were very bad people but never hears the Gospel?
And a friend in my school, when I asked the same question, said that everyone goes to the heaven/hell/limbo/next life of their own religon.

I think we can assume that DA is talking about the ones that succeed to not sin while still not heard about the Gospel. Another gorup of those are the unbabtised children.

[Divinus Arma]

I think we can assume that DA is talking about the ones that succeed to not sin while still not heard about the Gospel. Another gorup of those are the unbabtised children.

No. I'm talking about grown adults in parts of the world that have remained, amazingly, unexposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This could be in parts of Asia, Africa, some weird island, etc. According to the Christian faith, they would all be sinners simply by being born of course.

[HoreTore]

Well, if my memory of Dante serves me right, those who have never heard the gospel, as well as "notable heretics", ie. people of different religions who lived righteous lives(for example Saladin), spends some time in Limbo, until they are judged by their actions and go to paradise(o not...).

[Kralizec]

Well, if my memory of Dante serves me right, those who have never heard the gospel, as well as "notable heretics", ie. people of different religions who lived righteous lives(for example Saladin), spends some time in Limbo, until they are judged by their actions and go to paradise(o not...).

I don't think it was because of not having read or heard the gospel (reading biblical texts was a privilige of the higher clergy) but because of not receiving the Holy Sacraments, including baptism.

Also if you're in limbo you stay there, you're thinking of Purgatory.

[Ironside]

Well, if my memory of Dante serves me right, those who have never heard the gospel, as well as "notable heretics", ie. people of different religions who lived righteous lives(for example Saladin), spends some time in Limbo, until they are judged by their actions and go to paradise(o not...).

They're stucked in Limbo, those that gets transit to heaven are in the purgatory.

No. I'm talking about grown adults in parts of the world that have remained, amazingly, unexposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This could be in parts of Asia, Africa, some weird island, etc. According to the Christian faith, they would all be sinners simply by being born of course.

Yes, condemed by the original sin. The point I was trying to make was on the interesting people that only have done the original sin. I mean, the child molester in (insert random place in the middle of nowere place here) is pretty much condemed to hell even if he was Christian.
Another group that also only have the original sin are unbabtised children, thus most likely suffer the same fate.

You could of course make the argumernt of that only Christians does have the chance of repenting thier sins and end up in purgatory, giving them an "unfair" advantage to redeem thier souls, but I didn't get that feeling.

[atheotes]

What happens to me??? i am from India, born into a Hindu family... I can be calssified as atheistic...

p.s. guess i am not qualified to vote.

[HoreTore]

Also if you're in limbo you stay there, you're thinking of Purgatory.

Ah. True that. My memory I worse than I thought then...

[Blodrast]

Div, are you asking for people's personal opinion on this, or for the "official" stance on it (and presumably you only addressed it to Christians because they're potentially more likely to know what the official stance is as opposed to non-Christians) ?

[Husar]

Doesn't the bible say that God is just? If he really is, he should only do things that serve ultimate justice since he is perfect. So he certainly won't do anything unfair to them. Guess it depends on how they lived or so.

[Strike For The South]

There is no such thing as a orignal sin we are born pure and it goes down hill from there. You hafto make the decison to accept christ you hafto understand what accepting him means.

[Beirut]

As far as I know, the Jehova's Witnesses (I work with several) say that if you have never heard the Gospel, you get a free pass.

[Divinus Arma]

I am looking for the various Christian Orgahs to relate their interpretation as revealed by their influences, to include church leadership and/or self study.

Because: If those who have never heard the gospel get a free pass, then spreading the gospel is the worst thing a person could possibly do.

According to GotQuestions.Org, a Christian website:

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel.

And if people who haven't heard are only sent to "limbo" rather than hell or heaven, then spreading the gospel is still a bad idea. 100 Billion people in limbo is better even than a few in hell who are only there because they heard about the J-Man and didn't buy what the church was selling.

[naut]

People have already mentioned Dante's Divine Comedy. So I have no idea, limbo seems like the most logical explaination.

[Beirut]

Because: If those who have never heard the gospel get a free pass, then spreading the gospel is the worst thing a person could possibly do.

Didn't Jesus tell his followers to spread the gospel?

That is why the Jehova's Witnesses go door to door, because they say the Bible says you have to spread the word.

[Strike For The South]

I can explain that easy, Accepting Jesus is the greatest and most fufilling thing a person can ever do.

[Divinus Arma]

Didn't Jesus tell his followers to spread the gospel?

And effectively damning everyone to hell in the process.

"Tell everyone that they must believe that I am God or else they will go to hell!"

[Strike For The South]

And effectively damning everyone to hell in the process.

"Tell everyone that they must believe that I am God or else they will go to hell!"

Accepting Jesus is the greatest and most fufilling thing a person can ever do.


...If you truly honestly belive. No one should live without jesus

[Sigurd]

I guess no one saw my earlier post here.

This is IMO one of the great leverages the Mormon Church has on the other Christian denominations. This is one of the terrible questions of Clement of Rome and addressing Simon Peter, the Elisha of the new order of Judaism: What about my parents? They never heard of this message. Apparently he got a satisfactory answer since he joined with the Apostles.
There is a single verse in the New Testament which is interesting:

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? (1.Cor 15:29)

Now, what is that all about?
To me it seems the early Christians performed baptism for the dead. Was this the answer to Clements’s terrible question?

The Mormon doctrine on this is that the message is taught in the spirit world, lead by the Apostles and prophets of old. Jesus upon dying on the cross went and established the new order among the dead and taught in three days the gospel of salvation.
There is an indication of this when Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene (his wife?) and says that he can’t be touched because he has yet to ascend to his father (no body yet?). He later appears to the Apostles and stays with them for 40 days, eating and having what the Gnostics call; the secret teachings of Jesus to his Apostles. He challenges Tomas to feel his wounds which clearly indicates a physical body. He ascends to heaven and the Apostles finally get the message and teach it in the temple under the arch of Solomon. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians casually mentions baptism for the dead as if it were a common knowledge among the early church.

It seems that the community at Qumran, the so called Essenes did this practice; to baptize by proxy. That is; to be baptized for someone not able to, like those who died and was not baptized.
Again this strengthens the idea that baptism was a necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God.
But countless millions of God’s children would never be in reach of the gospel and those in authority to perform this necessary baptism.
Is this fair?
I guess not. Somehow this have to be addressed and it would be unfair if not everyone had an equal chance to be saved. The solution was to baptize by proxy all those that died in ignorance. That is why the Mormons do all that genealogy work.
It becomes the living’s responsibility to save those that are dead. An impossible work you say? Yes that would be my indication. But the Mormons have an answer for that too.

At the second coming of Christ a new world order will start; the Millenium. 1000 years of peace where the devil will be bound. The veil will be lifted and interconnection with the world of spirits will be possible. Baptism for all those that accept the gospel after death will be possible by proxy by those that will live a thousand years in the new Kingdom of Christ.

It kind of takes the breath away of the… purgatory or free pass mumblings of the other Christian faiths.

Oh, just to have said this; the Protestant church teaches damnation for those not fortunate of having received baptism while being alive, including children.
In other words if you have an infant that dies before you have a chance to baptize it, it is forever damned to hell.

[Csargo]

I voted Yes! Burn sinner Burn! cause I don't know honestly. Plus it sounds pretty cool.

[Lorenzo_H]

I voted Yes! Burn sinner Burn! cause I don't know honestly. Plus it sounds pretty cool.

Well trust me when I say that hell is probably not going to sound pretty cool if you actually do end up there.

I believe that if God finds you in a situation where you have no way of finding out about him he will reveal himself to you, and just you, in some way so that you can know him.

[Csargo]

Well trust me when I say that hell is probably not going to sound pretty cool if you actually do end up there.

I believe that if God finds you in a situation where you have no way of finding out about him he will reveal himself to you, and just you, in some way so that you can know him.

Never said hell was pretty cool.

[doc_bean]

I imagine the protestants have some heretical ideas on this () but the catholic tradition was no - still subject to original sin, such people could not enter heaven but would go to a place known as Limbo - jolly pleasant, a bit like the local country club, but not the full paradise deal.

Under the current Holy Father, there's a debate going on about the actual nature of limbo and indeed its very existence as a separate state from paradise.

The old dogma, afaik, was that the souls of those not baptized reside in limbo until judgement day, where they too will be judged. Dante (considering the time frame it's reasonable to assume he followed the dogma at the time) mentions that JC took some 'worthy' souls out of limbo to heaven around the time of his 'death'.

Now, personally, from reading the bible (when I was a kid...) I gathered that no one would be judged until judgement day. A certain pope tried to make this dogma, but he was accused of heresy (and might even have burned for it) if I'm not mistaken.

This is one of the most difficult and controversial questions in christianity.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well, if my memory of Dante serves me right, those who have never heard the gospel, as well as "notable heretics", ie. people of different religions who lived righteous lives(for example Saladin), spends some time in Limbo, until they are judged by their actions and go to paradise(o not...).

They're stucked in Limbo, those that gets transit to heaven are in the purgatory.

Hm... So for those that never hear the gospel, God either 1. sends them all to heaven, 2. or all to hell, or 3. judges them by the moral standards they had in their life.

If 1 is true, then that would be a good argument against ever letting your children hear the gospel, because if they do, they will be judged based on their moral standards - a test they may fail - whereas if you don't let them hear it, they will have a safe passage to heaven - why risk giving that away to let them see the gospel?

If 2 is true, then it would mean God's primary and highest prioritized attribute is not defender of good, since he rewards blind belief over high moral standards in life. Thus an evil dictatorlike creature, refusing to believe in him and defying him while living a life of high moral standards will make you a martyr of good in the afterlife, or in case afterlife doesn't exist, you die a good, honorable man and don't have to suffer after your death

If 3 is true, it would mean that it doesn't matter whether you believe or not, as long as your moral standards are high. Thus, I would only show the gospel to my children, if I am of the belief that this would be the only way to make them acquire some decent moral standards, but if they already have high moral standards, I would not show them the gospel, as there's a probability that no. 1 is true, in which case showing it to them would hurt their chances for salvation.

The conclusion is then: at all costs avoid showing the gospel to your children if you wish them well!

But what if they were very bad people but never hears the Gospel?
And a friend in my school, when I asked the same question, said that everyone goes to the heaven/hell/limbo/next life of their own religon.

This can be abused Let's say we now declare the existence of the religion org-ism, in which you come to a paradise that is optimally enjoyable in every way (it will give you everything that you wish when that is what makes you most pleased, but also refuse to give you what you wish, in the cases when the unpredictability and tension caused by this is likely to be more enjoyable). To get to this paradise, all you need to do is to write "dfawtefergrhhdgs" at least once in at least one forum post. "dfawtefergrhhdgs"

[Xiahou]

FYI: Limbo has never been officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.

And the answer to the poll question would be 'gah'.

"Non-Christians who seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience can also be saved without water baptism; they are said to desire it implicitly."