Imperial Diet V

**TinCow** · 08-20-2007, 13:29

A rotating position of King of Outremer would certainly make it less odious than it is now. If Jan is willing to amend Charter Amedment 12.4 to also make the position of King a single-term one, then I would be slightly more amendable to this course.

**AussieGiant** · 08-20-2007, 13:41

I agree Lothar, but now of equal importance is the severing of ties between Outremer and the Reich.

Of course due to the situation in Austria you can all assume it would be Austria to first lose all contact with the work my Father did out there.

I'm going to speak to the Kaiser personally at this time.

**Privateerkev** · 08-20-2007, 14:49

*sigh*

Lothar,

The day I let you edit one of my amendments, is the day Outremer freezes over. While you claim it is for "clarity" it is in actually to perpertrate fearmongering. I could have done the same with CA 11.4 last session when you raised Ducal influence. I could have put up an edited version of the CA with the words Lothar Steffen in place of Duke since you are heir to the Ducal throne. But that would have done nothing to further debate.

With regards to CA 12.4, this is for the benefit of all Kings who come after me. All that it ensures is that every King will have at least equal influence to his own Crusader Counts. I am sure everyone can admit that the King of Outremer should not have less influence than his own people. My legislation keeps the Dukes in a position of primacy. Lothar is just spreading fear and panic for his own political ends that are best known to only him.

As for CA 12.5, you are flat out wrong on the law Lothar. I hope this is an honest error and not an attempt to intentionaly mislead Duke Arnold. The Charter of Outremer is very clear on this matter. If there is not a Crusader Count, then the Crusader County is managed by the King of Outremer.

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

There is no provision in law that allows for the Duke to manage any territory in Outremer. I already have to manage any territory without a count. All CA 12.5 does is allow me to place a count in a county regardless of house affiliation if house affiliation can not be met. CA 11.4 already limits the influence that Crusader Counts get so offering them settlements to manage is one of the only things I can do for them.

If you want these things, Lothar, you will just have to offer CA's to amend the Charter and not state things in the law that simply do not exist.

As for the length of my term, maybe there is some middle ground. I have a war to run and 10 years is too short to be changing the head of the army. But some are nervous at the lifetime appointment. To me, I am happy as long as there is a mechanism that allows for me to be removed. There is already such a mechanism. Perhaps someone will want to pass something that strengthens that mechanism. Otherwise, I am an agent of the Kaiser. Appointed by him to oversee, what is, an Imperial project. Yes the houses contribute, but one house does not do this on its own. It takes all four houses. Which requires coordination. Which makes it Imperial and that puts it under the pervue of the Kaiser.

**gibsonsg91921** · 08-20-2007, 15:05

I concur with my brother's revised Edict. The reason I did not specify which army was so any army, Franconian, Austrian, or a combination of both, could move to attack.

**TinCow** · 08-20-2007, 15:12

Then clearly there is a conflict in the law, which we will have to resolve. Four of Outremer's provinces actively belong to the Ducal Houses.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia.

And Dukes govern settlements that are part of their House but not controlled by a Count:

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

Since there appears to be a conflict in the law, I shall use my personal edict to rectify it.

Charter Amendment 12.7: The Charter of Outremer (Charter Amendment 9.1) shall be amended by striking the following line:
The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

Do I need to once again emphasize that Outremer is not a House?! The Charter of Outremer itself specifically says so. We must get away from this preposterous notion of giving Outremer more and more privileges at every Diet session! Outremer exists to manage the Reich's lands in the East, nothing more.

**Privateerkev** · 08-20-2007, 15:15

*puts hand to forehead*

There is no conflict in the law Lothar. You just don't like the law.

Look, I have a war to run. I can't be running to the Dukes asking them to please build my barracks. I was picked to coordinate the defense of Outremer and that is what I will do. I need to be able to build in crusader counties without counts. Your Ducal micromanagment of the war effort in Outremer is going to get my men killed.

If you want me to manage the Reich's lands in the East then let me manage and do not pass a preposterous law that will be a micromanagement nightmare.

Furthermore, your CA does not provide for the Duke to manage the building in those counties. It merely ensures that no one will be able to build there if I have no count. Crusader Counts are not Counts. Therefore law 4.5 has no effect in Outremer.

**TinCow** · 08-20-2007, 15:23

The is entirely incorrect, Jan. As I have alreay shown you, all Outremer provinces belong to the Ducal Houses and to the Emperor. There is not a single province in Outremer that is outside of the Ducal Houses or the Reich. As that is the situation, the Dukes and the Emperor are fully authorized by law to manage them if Counts are not appointed to them.

**Privateerkev** · 08-20-2007, 15:27

And you will need to point to the specific part of the law that says that Dukes manage Outremer Counties. There is no law. You are just making this stuff up. The Charter of Outremer is quite specific on this issue. If your CA passes, it merely ensures that no one can build in a county without a crusader count. Even the Kaiser can't direct the building of these settlements. It is left to Crusader Counts and then to me if there isn't one. All CA 12.5 does is allow me to put a count in a county if I need him there. I will give house preference but I can not have ungoverned counties.

**Tamur** · 08-20-2007, 15:39

*Fritz von Kastilien enters the Diet chamber glowering. He sits at the Franconian table for a moment, then jumps up*

My apologies to my esteemed colleagues here for my absence the past two days. My castle seems to have taken some water in the recent rains. And good help is hard to find!

*Fritz pounds the table before him with his fist, then slowly raises his head again as he composes himself*

To use a term of the ancient ancestors of Stettin... Hwaet!

As for the legislation proposed thus far:

I agree with Ansehelm that Vilnius needs to come under the Reich's control. And I am sure that the combination of the Ducal army and the FHA, under Péter's control, will be sufficient to destroy any opposition. However, I must ask Captain von Runstede if he would agree to the following emendations?

Edict 12.4

Dependent on 12.2 passing, the fortress of Vilnius will be attacked by the FHA by the time the Teutonic Army decides to come back. They will meet in Vilnius and if one of the armies has problems reaching it's goals it will be supported by the other. This also makes it possible for the FHA to return and protect Breslau or Thorn.

Edict 12.5
Dependent on 12.2 passing, if Vilnius proves too dangerous and comes under constant attack, taking too much of the Reich's resources, military buildings will be destroyed and the city will be left.

I have more to say, but will wait for the good sir to approve or deny these changes.

**TinCow** · 08-20-2007, 15:44

Jan, you really must clear the sand out of your ears when you show up in Rome. We are not some Eastern hovel where cleanliness can be neglected. Every single province in Outremer belongs to a Ducal House or the the Emperor. The Charter clearly states that the Dukes and the Emperor manage all settlements that belong to them and which do not have a Count. By striking the conflicting portion of the Charter of Outremer, my amendment distinctly and legally restores the rights of the Dukes and the Emperor under the Charter. This is not a complex legal rule, so do your best to not look the fool in public, word will get back to the Mongols.

**Privateerkev** · 08-20-2007, 15:47

And again, you can not point to the specific law that bestows the power that you claim it does. Until you do so, your argument is meaningless.

**TinCow** · 08-20-2007, 15:48

Dear God, Jan. Here is your bloody law, which I have already quoted to you:

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 08-20-2007, 15:50

Jens Hummel:

For Chrissake, here we go with these ridiculous technicalities again!

Answer me these questions, Jan:

1. Do the Dukes not rule over their Houses?

2. Does the Charter not give away specific provinces to specific Houses?

3. Therefore, do the Dukes not control provinces which are specifically assigned to their Houses?

And CA 12.2 still needs a seconder!