Imperial Diet V

[Privateerkev]

Count is a legal definition. It is a title bestowed on an elector by a Duke.

Crusader Count is also a legal definition. It is a title bestowed on an elector by a King.

These definitions are given power from the Charter. A law that applies to one legal definition does not automatically apply to the other. They are seperate.

The Charter of Outremer empowers the Kaiser to select a King who manages those provinces which are laid out in the Charter. The King bestows the title of Crusader Count as he sees fit. These Crusader Counts manage the settlement that they are given. Any settlements in Outremer not managed by a Crusader Count, are managed by the King, according to the Outremer Charter.

Lothar has basically invented an issue where there was none. And Duke Arnold has allowed himself to be fooled by Lothar's "legal obfuscating", to borrow a term.

If Duke's wish to build in Outremer, then someone needs to change the law. Otherwise, we are all just running in place here.

[Kagemusha]

Helmut von Hamburg, enters the diet for the first time with his loyal watch dog, Jan, which Helmut has named after his little brother.

" Greetings! I thought to come and visit the Diet myself, before my little brother takes all the titles on the Reich! Im not here to propose edicts,but to claim tasks worth doing. I think that i have been completely left out on everything and thanks, much to my little brothers vicious plans to get the oldest son of Fredericus Von Hamburg to be remained as unknown man,while he has himself already usurped himself as King of Outremer! I demand an county atleast immediately. This miss treatment of my person is outrage!"


Helmut sits down,staring at his brother viciously.

[Privateerkev]

Helmut!

Jan grins at the sight of his brother.

Duke Ansehelm has given you our father's lands in Hamburg. As for usurping, the Kaiser named me. I did not usurp anything.

[Stig]

Gert von Runstede: Herr Jan, you have to remember that in your own wording you have never been a count, why would the Kaiser name someone King of the Outremer while that person hasn't even ever have been a count?

And when did you follow me Herr Helmut? I thought Duke Ansehelm send me on my own.

[Privateerkev]

Gert von Runstede,

You will have to ask the Kaiser why he appointed me. It is his right to name whomever he wishes.

[Kagemusha]

Helmut Von Hamburg

"I broke camp immediately,when i heard about my little brother being named as the King of Outremer. I thank mein Duke, for Hamburg, apparently i didnt get the title handed to me before i dispatched from Russia. Nevertheless, i would like to appeal to Kaiser, for not making such a large mistake of appointing my brother to an task,which his experience is not enough to manage it."

Helmut sits down and starts groaning to his servants,for not getting the information about countship of Hamburg.

[Privateerkev]

Helmut,

Since the Kaiser is not here, you will have to write him a letter.

[TinCow]

*Lothar raises an eyebrow.*

But Jan, Clause 6 of the Outremer states that the "King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count." It does not say Crusader Count, and as you have so clearly stated, Crusader Counts and Counts are not the same thing. If you are correct, there are no regular Counts in Outremer, thus the King should be setting the build queues for ALL of Outremer provinces, and Crusader Counts get to manage nothing.

Of course, this confusion would make more sense if you would only acknowledge that Crusader Counts and Counts are the same for legal purposes of province management.

[Privateerkev]

Yes, but clause 6 first uses the title Crusader Count and then shortens it for effeciency. Since it already named the title, that title then applies to the whole clause. This is common legal procedure.

Any more attempts to create an issue out of thin air or can we move on to other matters?

[TinCow]

And "Count" is a legal efficiency that refers to all Counts of the Reich, whether they are normal Counts, Crusader Counts, Rainbow Horseshoe Counts, or Terrible Rabid Alpine Chicken Counts. A Count is a Count, I don't care how many words you put in front of it!

[Privateerkev]

Yes but the law cares. The law makes that distinction however much you wish it were not so. If you believe there is a dispute in the law, then appeal to the Kaiser to arbitrate a rules dispute. Or maybe the Prince can do it in the Kaiser's absence.

Either way, this issue seems to be unresolvable without legislation or an arbitration. Provide one or both of those or move on.

[Ferret]

Helmut, although Jan may not seem like the ideal choice for his position I have strong faith in him and the Kaiser obviously shares this faith. Jan has fought exceptionally well in the Holy Land since his arrival and has been a valuable asset to the Kingdom of Outremer. It would not be wise to contest his position as I can think of no better candidate for the job.

[AussieGiant]

Yes, but clause 6 first uses the title Crusader Count and then shortens it for effeciency. Since it already named the title, that title then applies to the whole clause. This is common legal procedure.

Any more attempts to create an issue out of thin air or can we move on to other matters?

That is the weakest thing I have heard given your attempt at distinguishing between the two as a defence.

Nice try, but no dice. You want to live by technicalities Jan then you can die by technicalities.

Something my own lawyers have come to love in me.

[AussieGiant]

Right, that's just %^$@ing it!!

Will someone second CA 12.2!!!??

We clearly need it.

Jan I agree with the wording about setting build queue's if there is no COUNT.

Can someone shed light on how a noble becomes a Crusader Count in order to qualify as a House representative in Outremer!!??

In my mind if there is no Crusader Count to govern the province then fine, the King, as the legislation wording states, should then set the queue. What I will not have is the ability of the King to assign someone else as Governor of a province that is MINE.
It can sit vacant until a Duke is prepared to agree with one of his nobles to go out to Outremer as the House representative.

That should solve this I believe!! At least then the Dukes are able to control and NEVER lose their inherent right to govern their specific holding in Outremer.

Can that be a possible solution?

[Privateerkev]

Duke Arnold,

Your position is far more sensible than Lothars. As for your question as to how someone becomes a Crusader Count, the Charter empowers me to bestow the title each Diet. I bestow the title according to House accept with Edessa.

If you disagree with CA 12.5, then simply vote against it. Or don't vote at all. But at least your not contesting my right to set build queues in Outremer.

I just disagree with your wording that I set build queues that are not occupied by "counts" because that is not supported in the Outremer Charter. Again, I welcome having this issue resolved by arbitration.

[AussieGiant]

King Jan,

That is what I am saying.

I wont support CA 12.5, as it is going to sever ties with the House's and in affect goes against the whole theme of the Charter in my view.

For example:

If there is no count for you to allocate to the House specified Province of Damascus, then it is vacant and you set the queue as the legislation states.

Your wording allows you to put another noble from another house in Damascus and that is completely unlawful as it is my Province as Duke of Austria.

That is why CA 12.5 should not go through.

CA 12.4, I can live with, but with a limited time on the appointment. The Kaiser could re confirm the postion every 20 years for example.

Please note the original CA had the position as a 10 year appointment re set at the beginning of each Diet session by the Kaiser.

That's about the final take I am having on this subject.