Phalanx

[mAIOR]

I'm getting scared about hearing people using FM to charge pikes from the front... I think that's suicidal. If you get unlucky your FM will die faster than you can tell.

I always flank the phalanxes in EB. In MTWII I don't bother. I just send some heavy infantry (like Varingian guard) and they'll shop them to poeces.


Cheers...

[Perturabo]

I'm getting scared about hearing people using FM to charge pikes from the front... I think that's suicidal. If you get unlucky your FM will die faster than you can tell.

I always flank the phalanxes in EB. In MTWII I don't bother. I just send some heavy infantry (like Varingian guard) and they'll shop them to poeces.


Cheers...

I said that it was possible, not that it was a good idea

[antisocialmunky]

That does bring up the point that FMs in M2TW are really into impaling themselves(must have been a trait inheritted from their fore fathers) and big phalanx armies might cause some issues.

[Perturabo]

The problem is of course, that without decent phalanx availablilty, all greek factions would become Romans, using heavy infantry i.e. Theurepori (sorry about lousy spelling) and cavalry almost entirely. Why waste time on broken phalanx that are likely to be expensive and useless?

I am however encouraged by reports of mods such as 'Broken Crescent' where phalanx are semi decent I have no doubt the excellent EB team will be able to replicate this and better.

Just a note to Abokasee who wrote:

"Halberds are little better, I rarely use these, the only good ones are, Swiss Guard (But only papal states get them!) Janissary Heavy Infantry (Ok ok, they can't do the phalanx but they still kick ass)"

In M2TW my favourite unit is the eastern Halberd Militia. Not quite as good as Janissary, obviously, but are easily and cheaply recruitable by Egypt even, and absolutely kick ass if used properly. Line them up in front of a crusader army, get the charge and all you will do for the rest of the battle is run down routers.
French Voulgiers aren't too bad either, but I used to wonder why they got slaughtered by cavalry all the time until I found out about the animation bug (they won't fight hand to hand with cavalry in older versions of the game, not sure about more recent patches). Not a bad game even in vanilla really, but some of the bugs are just incredible. Why CA, just WHY???

[Barbarian]

The way how pikemen move, fight and hold their spears is nowhere close to how phalanx should behave, even if you manage to make them more effective. Phalanx is much more than just a group of pikemen, and during the medieval times, thus also in the game, there is no such formation.
Unless you can get the formation back from RTW, phalanxes will be a great problem.

Everything else looks fine.
Cheers! Keep up the good work!

[MiniMe]

Phalanx is much more than just a group of pikemen, and during the medieval times, thus also in the game, there is no such formation.

=) Good barbrian, please, don't underestimate the Renessainse period pikemen. They were fast, they were manouverable, they've faced foes much more dangerous than persian sparabara and won.
As for the game... vanilla MII is a disaster zone. however I advise everybody to try Point Blank's stats system named Real Combat (implemented is Stainless Steel). Now, his pikemen do act like pikemen and do the job

[Barbarian]

No, that was no what I meant. I never underestimated the Renaissance period pikemen, in fact, I was furious that they are so ineffective in M2: TW.
I also said:

even if you manage to make them more effective

So, I was talking more on the style of their fighting/marching.
Here you can see it clearly: pikemen in spearwall formation in M2:TW



And here, how they march with formation turned on:



Now, compare to the ancient phalanx:



1) The first and the third picture are not the same
2) The second picture should also look similar to the 3rd, because the ancient phalanx could also maintain the formation while marching slowly.

All pictures are correct, though, just the first two show the Renaissance style of fighting. Pikemen's first task was to stop the heavy cavalry, they were famed mostly for the fact that they were the first ones who could actually beat knights, and they only fought infantry when forced to do so.
Ancient phalanxes, however, were meant to be the backbone of many armies, so, they were prepared to fight infantry, especially another phalanx, as much as cavalry.

Now, a fight between 2 units of Renaissance pikemen would be resolved by stabbing each other with pikes, while infantry with short swords and small shields would try to get through the pikes and beat the pikemen in close combat.
This tactic is only close to Macedonian phalanx, as well as to any other phalanx, who wielded sarissa spears, thus using their spears as two-handed weapons.
But most of the other phalanxes also used shields and wielded spears as one-handed weapons. Is there such unit in M2?
Because of this, greek phalanx, for example, didn't work only with their spears. They used their shields and the pushing force from behind, which was created by all the unit working together, to make gaps in opponent phalanxes and gain victory. That means, they slowly moved forward, during the encounter, maintaining their spearwall. This is something that pikemen in M2: TW are not created for. They will only maintain the spearwall, which you see in the first picture, only when standing idly, thus being completely a defensive unit. And this fact has nothing to do with their secondary weapons.