Scottish independence?

[lancelot]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6944934.stm

Opinions on this?

I read a few reports (a few years ago now admittedly) that suggested that an independant Scotland would tantamount to a bananna republic without investment from the British isles as a whole, so from an Engilsh perspective we were better off letting them go as Scotland was a drain on the English economy.

Yet, in my heart I feel that any dissolution would ultimately hurt the international clout that the United Kingdom has got left, hence my 'moral' opposition to the move.

Yet again, it also seems that Scottish MPs have a disproportionate voice in state affairs so I think that needs to change.

If anyone has any reliable up to date info on the effects of scottish independence Id appreciate it.

And now- the floor is open-

[Byzantine Mercenary]

I do not like the idea that Scottish MPs can vote on issues that don't effect them (tuition fees are a good example ).

Also if they are a financial drain then it is unfair on the rest of UK that we would have to support them, i think that both issues need to be addressed.

All this makes Scottish attempts at seceding all the more insulting to me as i do still support the union. I think this issue stems from misplaced nationalism, wanting independence instead of being proud of our nation as a whole.

The SNP constantly goes on about how other small European nations have succeeded and like to compare Scotland's potential for growth will the the actual growth and standard of living in these nations but by comparing themselves with success stories of course they will predict an optimistic future!

I think that the reality for an independent Scotland would probably not be so rosy.

However i believe that most Scots are reasonable people and i believe that the ''push'' for independence comes from a vocal minority rather then the majority so i am not scared of a referendum although i don't think we really need more money wasted

[scotchedpommes]

Up-to-date, neighbourly views, as expressed ad nauseam; we'd all starve and
everyone here would be waiting with the "told you so" banners. It's not going
to happen, because the SNP only have, what, half the votes they need to put
it to parliament. I don't see the rest changing their stances regardless of what
has been said over the last couple of weeks.

If they do manage to push through a referendum, I don't see it going in favour
of independence, but then the sense appears to be that nobody has a clue how
it would go.

[Ja'chyra]

Oh I don't know, think of all the European money.

[Husar]

Oh I don't know, think of all the European money.

That we europeans could save.

[Duke Malcolm]

The SNP won't go for a referendum for a few years yet. There definitely isn't enough support for independence yet. The main thing about the whole debate is that the separatists are more vocal than the Unionists.

As for "It is a financial drain on England so they should just let it go", well, that idea seems a bit silly to me. One might then argue "England is a financial drain on the South East, the South East should secede".

[ShadesPanther]

That we europeans could save.

It would be like funding the Republic of Ireland from scratch again (but still funding the RoI anyway)

[English assassin]

One might then argue "England is a financial drain on the South East, the South East should secede

I'm sure I have, on this very board. We'd let you peasants visit, of course. If you promised not to gawp

I'm bored of Scottish independence talk. What I think is interesting is what the chances might be that the SNP get enough MPs in Scotland to deny Gordo a majority at Westminster. That would be exciting.

But can the SNP swing it in a pure first past the post election? (I am right that Holyrood is PR of some sort, aren't I?)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Aah, Scottish independence again. :snooze:

My two thoughts about it:
Scotland will do just fine on its own. There is no reason to assume it won't be another Ireland, Norway, New Zealand.
The second thought is that the Union will last at least for another 300 years. Scotland is not going to secede. Affluent democracies never do split up in the end, they just talk about forever and ever. Canada won't, Belgium won't, Spain won't, and the UK won't either.

[rory_20_uk]

Go, goodbye, good riddance.
Take the subsidies away, close the shipyards and the naval bases.

I am for the Union, but seeing as how the lesser members (not just in size) only want the money, then what's the incentive?

[scotchedpommes]

Aaaah, again, five points for saying the magic words, rory.

[English assassin]

I DEMAND a referendum on the creation of independent subsection of the tavern for threads discussing Scottish Independence.

[Incongruous]

Well considering Thatcher pretty much stole the north-sea oil for nothing more than tax cuts, England has been a bigger drain on Scotland to be fair.
If England gave Scotland a refund for the oil, couldn't Scotland do pretty well off that?

[InsaneApache]

Well considering Thatcher pretty much stole the north-sea oil for nothing more than tax cuts, England has been a bigger drain on Scotland to be fair.
If England gave Scotland a refund for the oil, couldn't Scotland do pretty well off that?

How can one country, the UK, give a refund to itself?

Purleese not Thatcher again!

[Incongruous]

The ol' refund was just an idea if they did split.
And why not talk about Thatcher?
That was a shocking misuse of power.

[InsaneApache]

The ol' refund was just an idea if they did split.
And why not talk about Thatcher?
That was a shocking misuse of power.

I totally agree. How dare she break the power of the unions in a democratic state. Just who did she think was by reviving the broken economy? It's an absolute scandal that she gave the working classes a chance to own their own property. Not to mention putting in place the free market economy that we are now reaping the rewards from. Yes, she was a terrible Prime Minister, probably the worst we have ever had.

Sorry for pulling the thread off topic.

[KukriKhan]

I DEMAND a referendum on the creation of independent subsection of the tavern for threads discussing Scottish Independence.

All in favour.

*pin drop*

All opposed.

*crickets*

Returned to committee.




Mind you: if Scot independence would = lower singlemalt Scotch prices to the colonies, maybe we could talk.

[ShadesPanther]

Mind you: if Scot independence would = lower singlemalt Scotch prices to the colonies, maybe we could talk.

Irish Whiskey is better.

[KukriKhan]

Irish Whiskey is better.

Several years ago I had a brief fling with Bushmills 10 year single malt. I fell head over heels in love with it. Sadly it didn't love me back - taking my money, and leaving me sick, regretful, and broke the next morning. Like a dance-hall floozie whose makeup had smeared, I couldn't stand even the scent of her in the daylight.

After a couple attempts to 'make things work', We broke up. I hope she found happiness elsewhere

[Rhyfelwyr]

I totally agree. How dare she break the power of the unions in a democratic state. Just who did she think was by reviving the broken economy? It's an absolute scandal that she gave the working classes a chance to own their own property. Not to mention putting in place the free market economy that we are now reaping the rewards from. Yes, she was a terrible Prime Minister, probably the worst we have ever had.

Sorry for pulling the thread off topic.

As someone said earlier, Scotland might have become more like Norway if Mrs Thatcher hadn't used the oil money to fund her own election campaign and a war.

I'm not sure whether or not independence would do Scotland much good now, but at least we'd never be in danger of getting someone like Thatcher in power again. You could count the number of Conservative voters in Scotland on one hand.

[Papewaio]

So instead of focusing on what is going wrong locally lets blame the larger governing body, if none exists blame another country.

Western Australia does it with regards to mining exports and saying it wants to split.

Taiwan blames China for all its internal woes.

North Korea blames South Korea.

Local councils blame the state government, while the state governments blame the federal, while Federated ones blame other nations...as long as it diverts attention from what the current government block is doing wrong.

Nationalism and wars are a great way to divert people from how bad a job a government is doing.

[scotchedpommes]

I don't believe blame applies to this in the way suggested, if anything because
the government hasn't been in power long enough to do a 'bad job'. Any
Nationalist government was always bound to go and push this issue as hard as
they could, regardless of cross-border relations, and any blame being levelled is
no different than would be expected from an opposition party.

[InsaneApache]

As someone said earlier, Scotland might have become more like Norway if Mrs Thatcher hadn't used the oil money to fund her own election campaign and a war.

You sure you aint got her mixed up with Blair?

How exactly did Hilda fund her election campaign using the nations money?

As for the war comment, that is so risible it beggars belief.

Back on topic; As a unionist I would wish our haggis munching compatriots stayed in. As I said before in another thread, who would they have to blame if the English wern't there?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm not sure whether I really am for independance. I just don't like Margaret Thatcher. There are plenty of English people that feel the same way, it's not just a crazy Scottish nationalist rant.

True what you say about Blair though. To be honest, I think one of the reasons the SNP has been so successful recently is that Labour launched such a negative campaign for the Scottish elections. They seemed to be telling us to vote Labour to prevent the SNP from getting into power. Now Labour are campaigning more positively in England with Mr. Brown, they are faring much better.

Surely you admit that Mrs Thatcher did not put the oil money to good use though? We could have invested it like Norway or Dubai. But that did not happen, and now the oil is drying up.

EDIT: Also I think its true that Scottish MP's should not be voting over issues in Westminster which will not even affect them.

[InsaneApache]

I have no idea how old you are, however in the late 70s the UK was as broken as broken can be. Hilda had her faults, however she was the last conviction politician we have had as Prime minister. The oil money would have been used to prop up the country, until the reforms implemented by the tories kicked in.

A very painful period for the UK, but a necessary one. This was one of my biggest gripes about the Blair years. All that wasted cash. A terrible shame.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I have no idea how old you are, however in the late 70s the UK was as broken as broken can be. Hilda had her faults, however she was the last conviction politician we have had as Prime minister. The oil money would have been used to prop up the country, until the reforms implemented by the tories kicked in.

I understand the UK was a mess back then. I'm not some far-left looney that stands by every decision the old Labour government ever made. In the long-run, Thatchers conservative policies did help economy recover, but as you say she had her faults, which unfortunately did lead to a lot of the oil money being wasted.

Mrs. Thatchers policies however were all geared to a short term recovery. Because there was no investment, old industries which might now have been valuable were destroyed completely, and were not used to their full potential.

Thatchers government was obviously far better than the one which preceeded her, I just don't agree with the people that see her as the saviour of the economy, any half-decent government could have filled that role.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Irish Whiskey is better.

Seconded!

Call the question!

[Gregoshi]

Sooooo, at this point in the discussion, are the Scots on the rocks?

[ShadesPanther]

Sooooo, at this point in the discussion, are the Scots on the rocks?

Well not if you tell it to them straight.

[KukriKhan]

The Scots. Seldom shaken. Often stirred.








edit: Of course, I mean that with much love in my heart. :)