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Thread: Its Chavez innit

  1. #1

    Default Its Chavez innit

    I was just wondering if anyone would be able to list a bunch of bad things that the government of Venezuela does that other governments don't do ?

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    So 'it's okay because he did it too' has become a legitimate argument? Or is it just the only defense you have for Chavez?



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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Everything fresh or we'll pick up where we left off here (such as countering others arguments fromthe other thread here)

  4. #4

    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    So 'it's okay because he did it too' has become a legitimate argument?
    Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
    Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy .

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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
    Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy .
    Hmm, I have not perfectly heeded the thread that presumably harbours a discussion regarding Chavez, but when I read this quote my first reaction would be to concur with the reasoning depicted in it. At the moment I see no error therein.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
    Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy .
    If you're trying to show what "bad" a country does compared to other countries yes(conditionally- setting aside any degrees or nuance). But, if someone wants to point out something bad, it can stand on it's own regardless of who else does it.

    You're trying to claim that someone can't say anything bad about a place if another country engages in the same behavior. This is not true. It's known as the tu quoque fallacy.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    You're trying to claim that someone can't say anything bad about a place if another country engages in the same behavior.
    Not at all .
    Since there is a widely held recurring opinion on this forum that the present government in Venezuela is really really bad then they must be able to come up with examples of its badness , for its badness to be really really bad then it must be things that other governments don't do .

    If they cannot then it isn't a really really bad government is it , its just another government and they have for some unknown reason developed a strange fetish about it .

    Its simple isn't it , if the Venezuelan government is so bad then what does it do that other governments don't do that set it apart from the rest ?

    But, if someone wants to point out something bad, it can stand on it's own regardless of who else does it.
    You see thats the clincher Xiahou , it doesn't stand on its own the way people have tended to present it . It is presented as bad simply because Chavez does it .
    Hence the "its Chavez innit"

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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    So your reasoning is, Chavez is such a horrible person and should be easy to rip apart, but any reason we can come up with has to be something that other governments dont do and if it isnt than Chavez is just another plain government.

    Chavez is a potential threat to simply put it, and another migrain to the US. Bush cut his support in south america and chavez stepped in loaning billions to cash needing countries, and now the US is paying for it with bad opinion from south american countries and support and better opinions of chavez. Now leftist leaders are being elected or are leading in south americas governments ( and yes countArach I know the domino theory). And now allying himself with other oil rich countries hostile to the US means trouble as we are very dependant on oil (and we're paying our enemies if you think about it) also supporting his "Bolivarian" revolution around south america to make things worse...
    Last edited by Boyar Son; 08-15-2007 at 02:22.

  9. #9
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Tribesman is right and I don't really feel threatened by Chavez.
    How people from the mighty US can cower in fear when they hear his name is beyond me.

    Oh and by the way Cossack, it's not Chavez' fault that you are dependant on oil, you're just being selfish there IMO, you could be happy that he sells you his oil. I'm inclined to find it highly ironic that the US is so dependant on oil, most of which is owned by it's enemies.

    And I hate freedom because I don't have a driver's license in case you were wondering.


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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Tribesman is right and I don't really feel threatened by Chavez.
    How people from the mighty US can cower in fear when they hear his name is beyond me.

    Oh and by the way Cossack, it's not Chavez' fault that you are dependant on oil, you're just being selfish there IMO, you could be happy that he sells you his oil. I'm inclined to find it highly ironic that the US is so dependant on oil, most of which is owned by it's enemies.

    And I hate freedom because I don't have a driver's license in case you were wondering.

    Well your from Germany..the hell do you know what chavez is doing?

    Ya think he hates germany? no, US. ur statement is... pretty much nuts....
    Last edited by Boyar Son; 08-15-2007 at 01:55.

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by K COSSACK
    Well your from Germany..the hell do you know what chavez is doing?

    Ya think he hates germany? no, US. ur statement is... pretty much nuts....
    This is how it starts. Stop. Now. Show respect, to get respect.
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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    I'm tired of people who dont pretty much pay attention to chavez or dont live somewhere where chavez threatens comin' up to me sayin a miiillliiioonn times

    " well in my opinion (IMO) chavez is not a threat. cant you read chavez isnt the only one to do this.. so he musnt be bad, oh but I think hes bad and easy to rip and your just not doing a good job of it. "

    Its like everything that I write is garbage, but anyone who gives a crappy come back at me wins the argument automatically..

  13. #13

    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Chavez is a potential threat to simply put it
    Any government is a potential threat .

    Bush cut his support in south america and chavez stepped in loaning billions to cash needing countries
    So Venezuela is doing what America decided it couldn't afford to do as much anymore .

    So your reasoning is, Chavez is such a horrible person and should be easy to rip apart
    Yep he is an idiot , he has some stupid policies and very bad implementation of some of his good policies , its easy to rip apart , but then again it does help if you understand the faults of those policies (or perhaps even know what the policies are).

    but any reason we can come up with has to be something that other governments dont do and if it isnt than Chavez is just another plain government.
    Nope , people contend that the government is worse than other governments , so they should be able to show that it does worse things than other governments .
    However if they can only show that it does the same as other governments then it surely is just another government isn't it , and the "worse" bit is baseless .


    now the US is paying for it with bad opinion from south american countries.
    The US has always recieved bad opinions from south and central america , it is to do mainly with its foriegn policies , supplying terrorists , overthrowing governments and backing dictatorships .
    So that is venezuelas fault now is it ?


    Now leftist leaders are being elected or are leading in south americas governments
    Leftist governments are elected pretty much worldwide , so are rightist and centrist , its a thing called democratic choice .


    And now allying himself with other oil rich countries hostile to the US means trouble as we are very dependant on oil
    errrrr...thats just business and politics isn't it .


    also supporting his "Bolivarian" revolution around south america to make things worse...
    Ah yes the Bolivarian revolution , thats the thing where the countries go back to their post colonial roots isn't it .
    Making their own descicions themselves instead of doing what superpowers tell them to do .

    BTW your last post doesn't make much sense at all and is unneccesarily inflammatory .

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Well, to name one, Venezuela will start evicting foreign nationals who criticize their government.



  15. #15

    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Now then Ice , would you care to elaborate on that ?
    Perhaps the actual wording of the legislation and couple that with the relevant residency and visa laws .
    Is it not actually a long exising piece of law ?
    A law that most other countries have ?

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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    these argument are in order with yours.

    1. I'm talking about chavez being a potential threat (bigger than others).

    2.No Chavez is gaining good opinion, support, and influence. He's south americas new "best friend" now.

    3.you keep mentioning these policies but do you know what they are? none that were already mentioned I supposed.

    4.."Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
    Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy "
    where does it say worse?

    5.that..but mostly with no US aid chavez will help them and that will make us the bad guy, its what chavez wants.

    6.that answer shows me you dont understand the "domino effect". It seemed like you probably did...

    7."thats just business and politics isn't it." well thats a good cover for it huh?

    8. yeah instead of chavez convincing his fellow leaders he can just let the money do the talking now right?

  17. #17
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by K COSSACK
    I'm tired of people who dont pretty much pay attention to chavez or dont live somewhere where chavez threatens comin' up to me sayin a miiillliiioonn times

    " well in my opinion (IMO) chavez is not a threat. cant you read chavez isnt the only one to do this.. so he musnt be bad, oh but I think hes bad and easy to rip and your just not doing a good job of it. "

    Its like everything that I write is garbage, but anyone who gives a crappy come back at me wins the argument automatically..
    I hear your anger, man, and understand where you're coming from.

    I gotta point out, though, that this is the backroom of the Org. We don't call people, or their views "nuts", or challenge fellow members' ability to have or express opinions on any matter.

    We insist that posters here give their fellow posters the respect and consideration that they also desire for themselves and their views.

    Nobody "wins" arguments back here. In the 7 years of its existence, not 1 single issue has been definitively decided. Only discussed, examined, twisted every which way to Sunday. There is value in that, for some of us, because we might read some idea that we hadn't come across before, or considered before. And we might learn something from that encounter.

    So, my advice: take it easy; listen to the other guys; contribute your own point of view (civilly), then move on to the next topic.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Husar, I'm certainly not arguing that Chavez is dangerous to the USA. To Columbia, maybe, but I have no fear of what he may do to us.

    Why I argue against him is because he's leading his country done a stupid socialistic path being held up by high oil prices. He's also a demagogue who seeks more power for himself.
    Yep he is an idiot , he has some stupid policies and very bad implementation of some of his good policies , its easy to rip apart , but then again it does help if you understand the faults of those policies (or perhaps even know what the policies are).
    Care to enlighten us as to what those are?

    CR
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by K COSSACK
    Chavez is a potential threat to simply put it, and another migrain to the US. Bush cut his support in south america and chavez stepped in loaning billions to cash needing countries, and now the US is paying for it with bad opinion from south american countries and support and better opinions of chavez.
    The changing of donor nation in of itself cannot make Chavez the 'bad guy'... if it is good enough for the goose its good enough for the gander. You cannot bribe er give economic support then take it away and not expect those who have grown dependent on it not to look for another source. An opportunity that was created by the US that Chaves seized on.

    If he is using it for nefarious purposes then those can be judged as bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by K COSSACK
    Now leftist leaders are being elected or are leading in south americas governments ( and yes countArach I know the domino theory). And now allying himself with other oil rich countries hostile to the US means trouble as we are very dependant on oil (and we're paying our enemies if you think about it) also supporting his "Bolivarian" revolution around south america to make things worse...
    Democracies are allowed to elect leaders from across the political spectrum. An attempt to limit who is elected would be a very bad thing indeed.

    Now as for the dependency on oil... just invent a fusion reactor that gives more power then it takes , that is economic (thumbs up are proportional to difficulty) and safe to run and then see a reverse domino effect where all the nations that rely on oil and only oil collapse... far fetched... not really as all the smart oil producing nations are trying to use their oil money to invest into other money producing ventures.
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    Guest Boyar Son's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    I wasnt expecting anything at all!

    didnt call him bad guy..

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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    ....not really as all the smart oil producing nations are trying to use their oil money to invest into other money producing ventures.
    Is Chavez doing so?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Now then Ice , would you care to elaborate on that ?
    Perhaps the actual wording of the legislation and couple that with the relevant residency and visa laws .
    Is it not actually a long exising piece of law ?
    A law that most other countries have ?
    I'm not going to look up what you asked Tribesman because I don't feel its necessary.

    I will post a news article I found on the subject, though, with quotes from Chavez himself:

    http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...646554,00.html

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

    Chavez, who has turbulent relations with the Bush Administration, has never been one to put up with those who disagree with him. He has had notable falling-outs with former confidants and insulted myriad foreign heads of state and their officials for criticizing his policies. But his newest statements were ironic, considering that what Chavez labeled a punishable offense in Venezuela is something he himself has done in the United States. Many Americans know Chavez best for calling President George W. Bush the devil at the United Nations last year. That remark, as well as similar anti-Bush comments made in Harlem on the same trip, occurred on Bush's soil.

    [Chavez has also taken to attacking senior Catholic prelates lately. The Associated Press on Tuesday cited an item on state-run news agency website quoting Venezuela's President assailing Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, who had been critical of Chavez recently. "Another parrot of imperialism appeared, this time dressed as a cardinal. That's to say, another imperialist clown," Chavez reportedly said.]

    Critics say that the Chavez government is becoming less and less tolerant of differing opinions. In late May, it forced opposition-aligned television station Radio Caracas Television off the air by refusing to renew its broadcasting license, and promptly opened an investigation against Globovision, the only remaining channel critical of the President. The other major privately owned television network, Venevision, has shifted its coverage from critical to favorable, leaving the broadcast landscape largely bereft of independent voices willing to challenge the government.

    Chavez counters that his government encourages critical thought. "Let's read, study, discuss, debate. Ideas, ideas and more ideas!" he said on Monday. Indeed, some within government ranks have been more than willing to denounce fellow Chavez allies in recent months. Pro-Chavez lawmaker Luis Tascon suggested there was corrupt behavior afoot at the state oil company and last week summoned company president and Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez to shed light on the matter in front of the national Assembly. Also last week, outgoing Defense Minister Gen. Raul Isaias Baduel said, in his farewell speech, that Chavez's beloved "socialism of the 21st century" was a vague model that was generating unease.

    Vague and undefined as Chavez's model of socialism may be, he wants everyone to sign up. He said on Sunday that 90% of Venezuelans should support his government, even though nearly 40% voted against him in presidential elections in December. His government had been fond of saying that it wishes Venezuela had a respectable opposition, rather than the current mishmash of defeated parties lacking proposals. Even that wishful democratic stance may be gone now. On Monday, Chavez acknowledged that his government wants to ideologize Venezuelan society in order to phase out an "imperialist" way of thinking imposed in the past. "They accuse us of ideologizing and I say yes, of course," Chavez said on Monday. "Who has said the contrary?" The time to differ with Chavez is over for foreign visitors and may soon be up for his domestic opponents as well.


    I don't think most other countries, well ones that we respect, have these kind of laws.
    Last edited by Ice; 08-15-2007 at 04:56.



  23. #23
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"
    He shoots, he scores.

    Chavez gets a goal for irony! Now all he needs to do is sharpen up his wit to boot.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    He shoots, he scores.

    Chavez gets a goal for irony! Now all he needs to do is sharpen up his wit to boot.
    Priceless isn't it?
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Priceless isn't it?
    Of course there is no price that would be capitalism old chap
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
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    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    I'm not going to look up what you asked Tribesman because I don't feel its necessary.
    So you don't feel it is necessary to know the law that will be used to deport foriegn nationals found to be actively working to undermine the country?
    Thats certainly an interesting approach . especially when you added.....
    I don't think most other countries, well ones that we respect, have these kind of laws.

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    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy.
    QFT.
    #Hillary4prism

    BD:TW

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Excellent thread Tribesman, you've summed up my thoughts on the subject so far.
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  29. #29
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    So you don't feel it is necessary to know the law that will be used to deport foriegn nationals found to be actively working to undermine the country?
    Thats certainly an interesting approach . especially when you added.....
    No, don't put words in my mouth. I don't think its necessary to try to dig through the Venezuelan government's web page and try to understand Spanish to read the bill. If you have easier access or know how to obtain the legislation, do share it with us.



  30. #30
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Chavez innit

    Chavez is really no worse than anyone else.

    Anyone with ten cents worth of historical knowledge could pick and choose from a list of mistakes, illegalities, atrocities, and general horriblenesses committed by North American and European countries that either match or far exceed anything Chavez has done or is even likely to do.

    I like him because he drives "the establishment" bonkers.
    Unto each good man a good dog

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