I was just wondering if anyone would be able to list a bunch of bad things that the government of Venezuela does that other governments don't do ?
I was just wondering if anyone would be able to list a bunch of bad things that the government of Venezuela does that other governments don't do ?
So 'it's okay because he did it too' has become a legitimate argument? Or is it just the only defense you have for Chavez?
Crazed Rabbit
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Everything fresh or we'll pick up where we left off here (such as countering others arguments fromthe other thread here)
Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .So 'it's okay because he did it too' has become a legitimate argument?
Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy .
Hmm, I have not perfectly heeded the thread that presumably harbours a discussion regarding Chavez, but when I read this quote my first reaction would be to concur with the reasoning depicted in it. At the moment I see no error therein.Originally Posted by Tribesman
Emotion, passions, and desires are, thus peace is not.
Emotion: you have it or it has you.
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Pay heed to my story named The Thief in the Mead Hall.No.
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Check out some of my music.
If you're trying to show what "bad" a country does compared to other countries yes(conditionally- setting aside any degrees or nuance). But, if someone wants to point out something bad, it can stand on it's own regardless of who else does it.Originally Posted by Tribesman
You're trying to claim that someone can't say anything bad about a place if another country engages in the same behavior. This is not true. It's known as the tu quoque fallacy.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
Not at all .You're trying to claim that someone can't say anything bad about a place if another country engages in the same behavior.
Since there is a widely held recurring opinion on this forum that the present government in Venezuela is really really bad then they must be able to come up with examples of its badness , for its badness to be really really bad then it must be things that other governments don't do .
If they cannot then it isn't a really really bad government is it , its just another government and they have for some unknown reason developed a strange fetish about it .
Its simple isn't it , if the Venezuelan government is so bad then what does it do that other governments don't do that set it apart from the rest ?
You see thats the clincher Xiahou , it doesn't stand on its own the way people have tended to present it . It is presented as bad simply because Chavez does it .But, if someone wants to point out something bad, it can stand on it's own regardless of who else does it.
Hence the "its Chavez innit"
So your reasoning is, Chavez is such a horrible person and should be easy to rip apart, but any reason we can come up with has to be something that other governments dont do and if it isnt than Chavez is just another plain government.
Chavez is a potential threat to simply put it, and another migrain to the US. Bush cut his support in south america and chavez stepped in loaning billions to cash needing countries, and now the US is paying for it with bad opinion from south american countries and support and better opinions of chavez. Now leftist leaders are being elected or are leading in south americas governments ( and yes countArach I know the domino theory). And now allying himself with other oil rich countries hostile to the US means trouble as we are very dependant on oil (and we're paying our enemies if you think about it) also supporting his "Bolivarian" revolution around south america to make things worse...
Last edited by Boyar Son; 08-15-2007 at 02:22.
Tribesman is right and I don't really feel threatened by Chavez.
How people from the mighty US can cower in fear when they hear his name is beyond me.
Oh and by the way Cossack, it's not Chavez' fault that you are dependant on oil, you're just being selfish there IMO, you could be happy that he sells you his oil. I'm inclined to find it highly ironic that the US is so dependant on oil, most of which is owned by it's enemies.
And I hate freedom because I don't have a driver's license in case you were wondering.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Originally Posted by Husar
Well your from Germany..the hell do you know what chavez is doing?
Ya think he hates germany? no, US. ur statement is... pretty much nuts....
Last edited by Boyar Son; 08-15-2007 at 01:55.
This is how it starts. Stop. Now. Show respect, to get respect.Originally Posted by K COSSACK
Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.
I'm tired of people who dont pretty much pay attention to chavez or dont live somewhere where chavez threatens comin' up to me sayin a miiillliiioonn times
" well in my opinion (IMO) chavez is not a threat. cant you read chavez isnt the only one to do this.. so he musnt be bad, oh but I think hes bad and easy to rip and your just not doing a good job of it. "
Its like everything that I write is garbage, but anyone who gives a crappy come back at me wins the argument automatically..
Any government is a potential threat .Chavez is a potential threat to simply put it
So Venezuela is doing what America decided it couldn't afford to do as much anymore .Bush cut his support in south america and chavez stepped in loaning billions to cash needing countries
Yep he is an idiot , he has some stupid policies and very bad implementation of some of his good policies , its easy to rip apart , but then again it does help if you understand the faults of those policies (or perhaps even know what the policies are).So your reasoning is, Chavez is such a horrible person and should be easy to rip apart
Nope , people contend that the government is worse than other governments , so they should be able to show that it does worse things than other governments .but any reason we can come up with has to be something that other governments dont do and if it isnt than Chavez is just another plain government.
However if they can only show that it does the same as other governments then it surely is just another government isn't it , and the "worse" bit is baseless .
The US has always recieved bad opinions from south and central america , it is to do mainly with its foriegn policies , supplying terrorists , overthrowing governments and backing dictatorships .now the US is paying for it with bad opinion from south american countries.
So that is venezuelas fault now is it ?
Leftist governments are elected pretty much worldwide , so are rightist and centrist , its a thing called democratic choice .Now leftist leaders are being elected or are leading in south americas governments
errrrr...thats just business and politics isn't it .And now allying himself with other oil rich countries hostile to the US means trouble as we are very dependant on oil
Ah yes the Bolivarian revolution , thats the thing where the countries go back to their post colonial roots isn't it .also supporting his "Bolivarian" revolution around south america to make things worse...
Making their own descicions themselves instead of doing what superpowers tell them to do .
BTW your last post doesn't make much sense at all and is unneccesarily inflammatory .
Well, to name one, Venezuela will start evicting foreign nationals who criticize their government.
Now then Ice , would you care to elaborate on that ?
Perhaps the actual wording of the legislation and couple that with the relevant residency and visa laws .
Is it not actually a long exising piece of law ?
A law that most other countries have ?
these argument are in order with yours.
1. I'm talking about chavez being a potential threat (bigger than others).
2.No Chavez is gaining good opinion, support, and influence. He's south americas new "best friend" now.
3.you keep mentioning these policies but do you know what they are? none that were already mentioned I supposed.
4.."Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy " where does it say worse?
5.that..but mostly with no US aid chavez will help them and that will make us the bad guy, its what chavez wants.
6.that answer shows me you dont understand the "domino effect". It seemed like you probably did...
7."thats just business and politics isn't it." well thats a good cover for it huh?
8. yeah instead of chavez convincing his fellow leaders he can just let the money do the talking now right?
I hear your anger, man, and understand where you're coming from.Originally Posted by K COSSACK
I gotta point out, though, that this is the backroom of the Org. We don't call people, or their views "nuts", or challenge fellow members' ability to have or express opinions on any matter.
We insist that posters here give their fellow posters the respect and consideration that they also desire for themselves and their views.
Nobody "wins" arguments back here. In the 7 years of its existence, not 1 single issue has been definitively decided. Only discussed, examined, twisted every which way to Sunday. There is value in that, for some of us, because we might read some idea that we hadn't come across before, or considered before. And we might learn something from that encounter.
So, my advice: take it easy; listen to the other guys; contribute your own point of view (civilly), then move on to the next topic.
Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.
Husar, I'm certainly not arguing that Chavez is dangerous to the USA. To Columbia, maybe, but I have no fear of what he may do to us.
Why I argue against him is because he's leading his country done a stupid socialistic path being held up by high oil prices. He's also a demagogue who seeks more power for himself.
Care to enlighten us as to what those are?Yep he is an idiot , he has some stupid policies and very bad implementation of some of his good policies , its easy to rip apart , but then again it does help if you understand the faults of those policies (or perhaps even know what the policies are).
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
The changing of donor nation in of itself cannot make Chavez the 'bad guy'... if it is good enough for the goose its good enough for the gander. You cannot bribe er give economic support then take it away and not expect those who have grown dependent on it not to look for another source. An opportunity that was created by the US that Chaves seized on.Originally Posted by K COSSACK
If he is using it for nefarious purposes then those can be judged as bad...
Democracies are allowed to elect leaders from across the political spectrum. An attempt to limit who is elected would be a very bad thing indeed.Originally Posted by K COSSACK
Now as for the dependency on oil... just invent a fusion reactor that gives more power then it takes , that is economic (thumbs up are proportional to difficulty) and safe to run and then see a reverse domino effect where all the nations that rely on oil and only oil collapse... far fetched... not really as all the smart oil producing nations are trying to use their oil money to invest into other money producing ventures.
I wasnt expecting anything at all!
didnt call him bad guy..
Is Chavez doing so?Originally Posted by Papewaio
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
I'm not going to look up what you asked Tribesman because I don't feel its necessary.Originally Posted by Tribesman
I will post a news article I found on the subject, though, with quotes from Chavez himself:
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...646554,00.html
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I don't think most other countries, well ones that we respect, have these kind of laws.
Last edited by Ice; 08-15-2007 at 04:56.
He shoots, he scores."No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"
Chavez gets a goal for irony! Now all he needs to do is sharpen up his wit to boot.
Priceless isn't it?Originally Posted by Papewaio
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
Of course there is no price that would be capitalism old chapOriginally Posted by Xiahou
So you don't feel it is necessary to know the law that will be used to deport foriegn nationals found to be actively working to undermine the country?I'm not going to look up what you asked Tribesman because I don't feel its necessary.
Thats certainly an interesting approach . especially when you added.....I don't think most other countries, well ones that we respect, have these kind of laws.
QFT.Originally Posted by Tribesman
#Hillary4prism
BD:TW
Some piously affirm: "The truth is such and such. I know! I see!"
And hold that everything depends upon having the “right” religion.
But when one really knows, one has no need of religion. - Mahavyuha Sutra
Freedom necessarily involves risk. - Alan Watts
Excellent thread Tribesman, you've summed up my thoughts on the subject so far.
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
No, don't put words in my mouth. I don't think its necessary to try to dig through the Venezuelan government's web page and try to understand Spanish to read the bill. If you have easier access or know how to obtain the legislation, do share it with us.Originally Posted by Tribesman
Chavez is really no worse than anyone else.
Anyone with ten cents worth of historical knowledge could pick and choose from a list of mistakes, illegalities, atrocities, and general horriblenesses committed by North American and European countries that either match or far exceed anything Chavez has done or is even likely to do.
I like him because he drives "the establishment" bonkers.
Unto each good man a good dog
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