Hah! Enjoy your new police state - don't say no one warned you

[HoreTore]

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/green...146693,00.html

So apparently, environmentalists have become terrorists... If they were planning to blow up planes I could understand it, however, they(the most radical ones, that is), are simply planning to disrupt air travel...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Guardian has established that at least two climate change campaigners have been arrested recently at Heathrow by officers using terrorism powers. Cristina Fraser, a student, was stopped when cycling near the airport with a friend and then charged under section 58 of the Terrorism Act. This makes it an offence to make a record of something that could be used in an act of terrorism.

"I was arrested and held in a police cell for 30 hours. I was terrified. No one knew where I was. They knew I was not a terrorist," she said.

[English assassin]

Oh dear. My head says this is indeed bad stuff and what about civil liberties.

My heart says I don't care and what about they all have baths and get jobs.

[Husar]

They could just protest elsewhere. It's not like noone would notice them at Piccadilly Circus.
And annoying people is not the best way to get sympathy anyway.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh dear. My head says this is indeed bad stuff and what about civil liberties.

My heart says I don't care and what about they all have baths and get jobs.

As a Man of Law you should be personnally offended. Then you should offer to take on their case.

Unless you're a Barrister, in which case you'll have to wait for them to ask you.

Moving on...

Missuse of legislation which is obviously wrong and yet completely legal.

[English assassin]

As a Man of Law you should be personnally offended. Then you should offer to take on their case.

Unfortunately, I work for money, as well as love, and I don't take payment in tofu.

[naut]

Well they can't protest within 1 mile of Westminster or Number 10 Downing Street because of fascist laws, so where else have they got to go?

[KukriKhan]

Search people even if they do not have evidence to suspect them

Ah, what we Yanks call the 'probable cause' provision for searches. That would be a tricky one. I presume the thinking /argument would be: 'If they don't carry luggage (like a typical airline passenger), they must be there for some other - possibly bad - reason'. And therefore searchable.

From the point-of-view of police: I can see their concern that a violent-intent badguy could infiltrate a peaceful demonstration.

From the point-of-view of a demonstrator: search, siezure & detention merely for participating in a public protest seems an unnecessary abridgement of civil rights.

From the point-of-view of a disinterested traveller: assuming the demo is authorized by authorities, what would be the harm of containment/siting of the demo, allowing them visibility by those interested (and media coverage), while not disrupting travel, or posing any threat of violence. For example: the street entrance to Heathrow, but not in the terminal proper, or on the tarmac.

[Odin]

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/green...146693,00.html

So apparently, environmentalists have become terrorists... If they were planning to blow up planes I could understand it, however, they(the most radical ones, that is), are simply planning to disrupt air travel...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Guardian has established that at least two climate change campaigners have been arrested recently at Heathrow by officers using terrorism powers. Cristina Fraser, a student, was stopped when cycling near the airport with a friend and then charged under section 58 of the Terrorism Act. This makes it an offence to make a record of something that could be used in an act of terrorism.

"I was arrested and held in a police cell for 30 hours. I was terrified. No one knew where I was. They knew I was not a terrorist," she said.

So this is a "new police state" how? I've been to London once and the party I was travelling with (a former brit) was busy attempting to point out to me the cameras recording our stroll.

And yes, environmentalists can be terrorists, so when the revlon factory goes up in smoke and everyone is bitching about the police not doing enough maybe the head official will say something like "well boys and girls this isnt Norway after all" and throw all of them in the clink for potential sedition.

[Tribesman]

Well they can't protest within 1 mile of Westminster or Number 10 Downing Street because of fascist laws, so where else have they got to go?

They can , in fact Mark Thomas has now entered the Guinness book of records for doing just that lots and lots , apparently it is the record for the largest number of different protest demonstrations a person has held in one day .
Though I am surprised they didn't give the record for the largest number of simultaneous demonstrations on different issues within a 1 mile radius , perhaps they will for the next big event of simultaneous individual protests he gets together in Westminster .

What is ironic about that law is that it was introduced to stop one man who has a very long running anti-war protest outside Parliament , but due to the way the law is written it doesn't effect him because his ongoing protest predates the legislation and is exempt

[Crazed Rabbit]

So a bunch of people want to illegally disrupt operations around an airport big terrorist target) and thereby greatly stretch police power from where its needed.

As an occasional plane traveler, I wouldn't really mind the disruptive ones thrown in prison a week or so where they can't massively delay travel.

I don't know about Britain, but here in the US certain envirowhackos have been terrorists for years, and are near the top of the FBI's domestic terrorism threat list.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh dear. My head says this is indeed bad stuff and what about civil liberties.

My heart says I don't care and what about they all have baths and get jobs.

Hah! I can tell you are nearing forty.

Come on, assuming these are just the usual harmless unwashed veganists that better the world by hanging out at airports and nuclear plants all day, this is a disgrace.

[Don Corleone]

All depends on what these jamokes were doing out at the airport. If they're just sitting around, smoking dope and waving signs saying "stop the pollution", then Louis and others are right, this is a violation of their right to peacably assemble. But if they're actually disrupting traffic and impeding the progress of others, CR is right. They're troublemakers and violating the rights of others and should get punished accordingly.

That being said, it is scary how easy it is to get on a watch list, or on the no-fly list or any of the other lists they have circulating around. I'm probably on one now for saying that.

[HoreTore]

All depends on what these jamokes were doing out at the airport. If they're just sitting around, smoking dope and waving signs saying "stop the pollution", then Louis and others are right, this is a violation of their right to peacably assemble. But if they're actually disrupting traffic and impeding the progress of others, CR is right. They're troublemakers and violating the rights of others and should get punished accordingly.

As with any demonstration, there are a couple of nutcases who want a more militant approach. However, this time all they are planning, is to call in fake bomb reports and such... Nothing that will hurt anyone, and how much it will affect travel is decided by how much hysteria the police will make out of it... It hardly seems like a good enough reason to strip search 1500 peaceful demonstrators. But then, they get in the way of business, I suppose...

Btw, they'll be hard-pressed to disrupt travel more than the current airport "security" measures do now...

That being said, it is scary how easy it is to get on a watch list, or on the no-fly list or any of the other lists they have circulating around. I'm probably on one now for saying that.

Very true. I don't really know whether I'll be allowed entry into the US, I guess I'll find out when the time comes...

[Ice]

Very true. I don't really know whether I'll be allowed entry into the US, I guess I'll find out when the time comes...

Why wouldn't you be allowed entry?

[HoreTore]

Why wouldn't you be allowed entry?

Well, firstly, I am a propaganda-spreading commie...




Oh, and I've been suspected, watched and investigated for terrorism.

[Don Corleone]

Well, the police don't have the luxury of treating any bomb-threat as fake, even when they're mostly certain it is. It requires a full response because if they turn out to be wrong, and the police didn't work to prevent it, the consequences would be tremendous. Not to mention, if we do as you suggest, and just let folks phone in fake-bomb-scares as a form of protest, what happens when some idiot gets the bright idea to start making real ones, then says "Hey, we warned you".

Threatening violence is a form of terrorism, granted not as extreme as enacting violence. Those involved should have been investegated. They're lucky they didn't have any charges filed against them.

[Slyspy]

Most people would have some sympathy with the environmentalists and NIMBYs who are protesting. Right up until the point that it disrupts their holiday.

Such a protest would be utterly counterproductive IMO.

I can already feel my sympathy draining away and I'm not even in a six hour queue because some idiot has chained himself to something vital.

Peaceful protest is one thing, but when it comes to direct action things can get a little bit blurry, especially around airports.

I'd much rather return to the protestor the right to protest outside 10 Downing Street (or a military camp) than have them piss around outside an airport. Especially if I need to use that airport.

[HoreTore]

Well, the police don't have the luxury of treating any bomb-threat as fake, even when they're mostly certain it is. It requires a full response because if they turn out to be wrong, and the police didn't work to prevent it, the consequences would be tremendous. Not to mention, if we do as you suggest, and just let folks phone in fake-bomb-scares as a form of protest, what happens when some idiot gets the bright idea to start making real ones, then says "Hey, we warned you".

How can random searches be an effective countermeasure against fake bomb calls...? What are you searching for, cell phones? I've never said "hey, let's do nothing", but how on earth can random searches(or any searches) prevent fake bomb calls? Sure, investigate the bomb reports if they come. But remember that there are 2 ways of doing that:

1. Keep it quiet, evacuate the area in question quietly and effectively with an emphasis on calming people so that it goes quickly, search the area and if nothing is found, it's business as usual
2. Run all around the airport screaming "IT'S GONNA BLOW", empty the airport, send in search teams, and then keep the airport locked and guarded for a day or so. Oh, and arrest every protester around the airport and bill them for the financial loss.

Those involved should have been investegated. They're lucky they didn't have any charges filed against them.

Well, that might be because it hasn't started yet...

[Louis VI the Fat]

All depends on what these jamokes were doing out at the airport. If they're just sitting around, smoking dope and waving signs saying "stop the pollution", then Louis and others are right, this is a violation of their right to peacably assemble. But if they're actually disrupting traffic and impeding the progress of others, CR is right. They're troublemakers and violating the rights of others and should get punished accordingly.

I hear what you are saying, or CR, but the point is that these people are climate protesters. If they disrupt air traffic, they should be arrested and tried for disrupting traffic - not for terrorism. If they protest by unlawful means, they should be prosecuted for breaching the laws they broke, not for terrorism.

The rationale for the police is this: 'Should individuals or small groups seek to take action outside of lawful protest they will be dealt with robustly using terrorism powers. This is because the presence of large numbers of protesters at or near the airport will reduce our ability to proactively counter the terrorist act'.

This is rubbish. If I steal some chewing gum, I am according to this logic using up precious judicial and police resources that could've been used to counter terrorism.
Anti-terror laws are abused in this case. The police are well out of line here, doing what civil liberty groups have been arguing: that anti-terrorist laws give too much power to authorities, too much unchecked power, and that it will lead to improper abuse of this power. Give authorities a finger and they'll take your hand.

I don't necessarily agree with the protesters cause, I may not even disagree with tough anti-terror laws itself, but I do object the improper and wanton use of the tremendous power anti-terror laws give the police.

So I say we try the police for terrorism: their abuse of anti-terror laws in this way will undermine public support for anti-terror laws, thereby aiding terrorists in the long run.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I do agree, Louis, that these people should be prosecuted for disrupting air travel. However, if they do what Horetore says they are going to do - call in fake bomb threats, that's far beyond chaining themselves together to block traffic or something. That is terrorism - the use of fear to promote political goals.*

However, this time all they are planning, is to call in fake bomb reports and such... Nothing that will hurt anyone, and how much it will affect travel is decided by how much hysteria the police will make out of it... It hardly seems like a good enough reason to strip search 1500 peaceful demonstrators. But then, they get in the way of business, I suppose...

No bomb report, especially in this time, can be treated as fake, and if that is what these people are planning on doing, then my opinion of them went from annoyance to they are despicable scumbags.

Crazed Rabbit

*Necessary disclaimer for whiners: This is not a thorough definition, should not be treated as such, nor used for debate, just a short quick one to get the point across.

[Louis VI the Fat]

No bomb report, especially in this time, can be treated as fake, and if that is what these people are planning on doing, then my opinion of them went from annoyance to they are despicable scumbags.

Yes, you are quite right and you expressed my feelings about it very eloquently.
Also, now that I think about it a bit more, it suddenly occurs to me that these climate protesters are dealing with airports, and with public transport in the UK.
(Yes, I'm a bit slow)


Both of which warrant close monitoring, a nervous police force and some extended power to the authorities.

Gah! The trying times we live in!

[HoreTore]

Both of which warrant close monitoring, a nervous police force and some extended power to the authorities.

Gah! The trying times we live in!

True. But not without reason. You simply can't have a world where you can be arrested for "looking suspicious". Or, actually you can, but that would be a police state... Do we really want that?

[KukriKhan]

Why not just assign them designated areas for protest, that won't interfere with airport ops, or their right to protest?



Throw a few MI5 guys in there amongst them to mill about looking for trouble-makers. Let 'em have bullhorns and signs and all. Let the media cover it. Everybody happy (except maybe the anti-enviro's).

[Crazed Rabbit]

True. But not without reason. You simply can't have a world where you can be arrested for "looking suspicious". Or, actually you can, but that would be a police state... Do we really want that?

Saying they plan on calling in bomb threats and doing other illegal activities sounds like reason enough.

CR

[HoreTore]

Saying they plan on calling in bomb threats and doing other illegal activities sounds like reason enough.

CR

For random searches? Pray tell, what would these searches accomplish?

[Louis VI the Fat]

True. But not without reason. You simply can't have a world where you can be arrested for "looking suspicious". Or, actually you can, but that would be a police state... Do we really want that?

I agree with that, totally. It just suddenly occured to me that they are protesting at an airport, and that that does add additional complications and responsibilities for both the climate protesters and those monitoring them.

They should all listen to Kukri, the overlord of the .Org and the entire world beyond.

[Crazed Rabbit]

For random searches? Pray tell, what would these searches accomplish?

Yes, of those attending the protest. They'd make sure nobody is going to harm travelers or cause illegal disruptions. You can't honestly say ' we're going to call in fake bomb threats' and expect the police to let you get close to an airport to purposely disrupt it.

Crazed Rabbit

[HoreTore]

Yes, of those attending the protest. They'd make sure nobody is going to harm travelers or cause illegal disruptions. You can't honestly say ' we're going to call in fake bomb threats' and expect the police to let you get close to an airport to purposely disrupt it.

Crazed Rabbit

You'll have to explain that one. How does going through someone's stuff prevent him from making a fake bomb call...?

You'd have to confiscate every cell phone to do that. And cut the wires on every phone in the area. Oh, and shut down all transportation so that the protesters are stuck and can't reach a phone... But wasn't that what the protesters were planning?

[Papewaio]

Unfortunately, I work for money, as well as love, and I don't take payment in tofu.

But if they can't contact a lawyer they will find it very hard to pay you in any currency... so you might be losing income.

[Tribesman]

Well the protesters are claiming that BAA madep the bomb threats thing after failing to get the injunction against the protest .
Meanwhile their direct action has involved chaining themselves to airport gates at two private airfields .