Gunpowder Units Ineffective

**Zoring** · 08-22-2007, 18:07

How could a handgun be cheaper then a length of wood with a piece of pig-iron on the end?

**LeeJackson** · 08-22-2007, 22:28

How could a handgun be cheaper then a length of wood with a piece of pig-iron on the end?

I'm not sure about the guns, but I imagine that Shot was a lot cheaper then arrows. Arrows had to be assembled by skilled crafts men. Shot requires little skilled labor and is much easier to mass produce.

**locked_thread** · 08-23-2007, 23:39

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**Matt_Lane** · 08-24-2007, 00:00

Originally Posted by CyanCentaur

In terms of ammo costs: I agree with LeeJackson that grinding powder and producing cheap slugs was cheaper than crafting arrows tipped with armor piercing high grade steel.

Also I'd say gunpowder is cheaper to haul into battle. Powder and shot are compact for transportation, translating to fewer wagon trains. This also means fewer mules to feed and more fodder for your cavalry.

Surely during this period gunpowder was still hard to come by and therefore expensive. It was also temperamental and vulnerable to moisture where as I would imagine you could store up plenty of cross bow bolts until they were needed.

**locked_thread** · 08-24-2007, 00:14

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**Empirate** · 08-24-2007, 14:21

Gunpowder consists of charcoal (easy to get), sulphur (relatively easy to get) and saltpeter (very tricky to get). For a long time, the Atacama desert in Chile was the only place where saltpeter could be found in great abundance, thus limiting gunpowder use to what saltpeter you could scratch from your own ground - usually not much. The synthesis of Saltpeter was only invented in the 20th century!
Furthermore, gunpowder is dangerous in great quantities and highly perishable in heavy weather. Shot isn't that easy, either. You can stick much anything into a blunderbuss (nails, small rocks, shards of earthenware...), but a musket will only take smooth leaden balls or blow up.
I agree about crossbows and of course bows being "high-tech", and about arrows and bolts being tricky to make. Still, one should not underestimate the costs of gunpowder weapons. Even making simple tubes of iron isn't so easy using only renaissance metallurgy. I won't believe gunpowder weapons were successful because of the cost involved. Crossbows would remain the superior weapon for a long time, while bows just needed too much training. I say it must have been as much a cultural thing as anything else!

Also, in the early armies that used handguns or even muskets, bows and crossbows still played a large role. We talk about the Mughal "gunpowder empires", for example, but these were founded as much on mounted archers as on cannon, handguns and muskets.

**locked_thread** · 08-25-2007, 01:25

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**Empirate** · 08-27-2007, 16:20

I suspect you might be right... However, it's clear that the transition took several hundred years to complete. So the M2:TW depiction, in which gunpowder-equipped armies fight against crossbow- or even bow-equipped armies is not at all inaccurate. For me, it is part of the appeal of the game that different tech levels can clash, but are still close enough that the lower tech level can win given numerical or tactical superiority.

**Eusebius86** · 10-10-2007, 23:26

I'm using patch 1.2 and have had lots of trouble with my gunpowder units in skirmish. Only the front row fires and they don't even fire as a unit (just sporadically). Any help?

Also, whenever my gunpowder units get hit by enemy missiles they have to 'reform' before firing. This is VERY annowing. Any help?

**TevashSzat** · 10-12-2007, 03:51

Originally Posted by Eusebius86

I'm using patch 1.2 and have had lots of trouble with my gunpowder units in skirmish. Only the front row fires and they don't even fire as a unit (just sporadically). Any help?

Also, whenever my gunpowder units get hit by enemy missiles they have to 'reform' before firing. This is VERY annowing. Any help?

This is a very well known bug. Don't remember the solution from the top of my head, but a quick search should do it

**antisocialmunky** · 10-12-2007, 16:26

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Timurid Elephanzers. Those things are absolutely ridiculous and are probably the best gunpowder units in the game.

Suddenly bridge battles become not so great an idea...