(2) Why nationalism?

**HoreTore** · 08-18-2007, 11:46

Originally Posted by K COSSACK

so you deny Greeks uniting against a common enemy for the common goal of each city-state? (nows the time to say "nevermind!")

They allied all right, but it was not because of nationalism, there wasn't even any nation! They allied because they found out that it was a wise thing to do, kinda like England and France found out that it was a good idea to ally against Germany.

As I've said, I think you've been watching 300 too much

**Boyar Son** · 08-18-2007, 20:50

At marathon the spartans agreed to help. And after their victories you cant say their wasnt nationalism among the ranks, former enemies now fighting along side each other.

**HoreTore** · 08-18-2007, 20:53

Originally Posted by K COSSACK

former enemies now fighting along side each other.

And that doesn't apply to france and britain...?

**Boyar Son** · 08-18-2007, 21:04

Were they enemies as of 1913? no, they werent (correct me if I'm wrong). Also wouldnt you want to leave the 100's year war in the past? or the Nepoleonic wars?

I mean that was then it does not mean they have to continue to be enemies.

**HoreTore** · 08-18-2007, 21:20

Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Were they enemies as of 1913? no, they werent (correct me if I'm wrong). Also wouldnt you want to leave the 100's year war in the past? or the Nepoleonic wars?

I mean that was then it does not mean they have to continue to be enemies.

They ceased to be enemies since they had germany to think about - first Bismarck, then WWI and finally WWII...

Anyway, I can't see any evidence of nationalism when it comes to the greeks, I see it as nothing more than a strategic alliance put in place because it that's what served their own interests best. As most alliances are. They allied with each other to further their own interests, they didn't ally because they saw themselves as brothers, which they would if nationalism was involved....

**Conradus** · 08-18-2007, 21:47

Originally Posted by K COSSACK

At marathon the spartans agreed to help. And after their victories you cant say their wasnt nationalism among the ranks, former enemies now fighting along side each other.

Actually you can say there wasn't any nationalism. After the Persian Wars the allies had no troubles in starting to fight each other: the Peloponnessian Wars.
The Spartans agreed to help, but they weren't there. If the Athenians would've waited for them, chances are it was already in rubble.
And the fact that you mention that they were fighting to defend their society only proves that you've seen 300 a little too much ;) (loved that movie though)
The Spartans were as despotic as any nation. And Athens' democracy is far from what we use today. Democracy itself was never in any danger.

And regarding France and Britain. It was a choice of the mind, certainly not of the heart. It always confused my why the UK allied with France, rather than Germany. Anyhow, they were still fighting colonial quarrels, if not wars, untill late in the 19th century. Only when Germany became the main power on the continent, the Britains started to support France, the underdog, as they have always done to preserve a balance in Europe.

**Boyar Son** · 08-18-2007, 23:47

Where did I say fighting to defend society?

**Tribesman** · 08-19-2007, 00:14

Where did I say fighting to defend society?

errrr.....

Greeks uniting against a common enemy for the common goal of each city-state?

.....there

**Boyar Son** · 08-19-2007, 01:25

Originally Posted by Tribesman

errrr..........there

He meant society as in a way of life tribes.....

**Tribesman** · 08-19-2007, 02:41

He meant society as in a way of life tribes.....

What you mean like the way of life in their city states

**Geoffrey S** · 08-19-2007, 01:02

I'd have thought patriot would apply more to pride in a country, with nationalist applying more to someone so fearful of his own nation's inadequacy that he sees other nations as a natural enemy trying to put down his own.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

They allied all right, but it was not because of nationalism, there wasn't even any nation! They allied because they found out that it was a wise thing to do, kinda like England and France found out that it was a good idea to ally against Germany.

As I've said, I think you've been watching 300 too much

And it wasn't even a majority. A few citystates banded together, some joined the Persians of were conquered by them, and even more stayed well out of it. After that they all went back to killing each other, until someone else killed more of them and went off to Persia again. And in general, Greekness had nothing to do with it; such a word would have been meaningless in any case.

**Slyspy** · 08-19-2007, 01:15

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

I'd have thought patriot would apply more to pride in a country, with nationalist applying more to someone so fearful of his own nation's inadequacy that he sees other nations as a natural enemy trying to put down his own.

I agree.