The Kingdom of Corinthia

[christof139]

Read your reply, and it seems we have very similar idead. Ever think about using classic Greek body armor with a Late Roman or byzantine plumed helm?? That may give a good look and could be used for the Knoghts, especially with plumed helms and the large cheek guards of some of those Late Roman and Byzantine helms. You know what I am referring to.

Good idea about using the helms for armor upgrades too, makes it easier to actually visually identify units so upgraded.

Shield coloring is another thing that can be used, say Bronze Shields for lower level troops and Silver Shields for higher and/or upgraded level troops, and the same for helmet colors but maybe reversed, whatever suits ones fancy.

You've dome a lot of work already!!!

Chris

PS: A Praetorian Guard officer type look would be kind of interesting to use for the very elite troops, for the Infantry at least anyway IMHO. Good info. you gave about the copper and tin and bronze usage in Corinthia.

[Taranaich]

Read your reply, and it seems we have very similar idead. Ever think about using classic Greek body armor with a Late Roman or byzantine plumed helm?? That may give a good look and could be used for the Knoghts, especially with plumed helms and the large cheek guards of some of those Late Roman and Byzantine helms. You know what I am referring to.

I was thinking the more "advanced" a Corinthian unit, the more Byzantine it would look. Corinthian knights will pretty much resemble Clibinarii, with the byzantine helms with plumes and stuff.

PS: A Praetorian Guard officer type look would be kind of interesting to use for the very elite troops, for the Infantry at least anyway IMHO. Good info. you gave about the copper and tin and bronze usage in Corinthia.

Well, I think the current unique Corinthian units is pretty much full, since I don't want to leave other factions in the lurch. I had initially only wanted to make four or five uniquely Corinthian troops, but I had so much fun making them I added a good dozen or so! Hopefully I can round out the other factions as fully.

[christof139]

I was thinking the more "advanced" a Corinthian unit, the more Byzantine it would look. Corinthian knights will pretty much resemble Clibinarii, with the byzantine helms with plumes and stuff.

Well, I think the current unique Corinthian units is pretty much full, since I don't want to leave other factions in the lurch. I had initially only wanted to make four or five uniquely Corinthian troops, but I had so much fun making them I added a good dozen or so! Hopefully I can round out the other factions as fully.

Ha ha ha!! 12 uniquely Corintian units you made!??! That's a lot, and good!!!

You are making some sharp units. Hey, if you have too many unique Corinthian units just transfer some over to Argos to save some work, might be OK.

The Late Roman - Early Byzantine helm, which name I could not remember a few posts back, is the Spanglehelm and its assorted variations, both plumed and unplumed. Combine this helm with earlier Greek armor and it may look very sharp and interesting, along with trousered legs and some Praetorian Officer style helms for Gens. and some Guard units, whatever.

Chris

[Taranaich]

Would you mind mentioning what that way is? I wasn't aware of a variable that determined the reach for each weapon in soldier's arsenal.

Certainly, I just applied Condioterri SOG's formula http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1700190&highlight=pikemen+use+pikes+more+often#post1700190]as seen here. It isn't anything to do with weapon reach, but proximity between enemy soldiers. I find it very useful personally, though for some reason it doesn't work with all people, not sure why that is.

Ha ha ha!! 12 uniquely Corintian units you made!??! That's a lot, and good!!!

Good grief, I hadn't actually counted the number! I only have three or four for poor Zingara so far...

I'm making most of the Corinthian professional units mercenaries, but the levies and elites will be unique to Corinthia. Because Argos is a "younger" kingdom than Corinthia it would have a more traditional "hyborian" militia as opposed to the hoplites, but they will have a few shared units where logical. I'm going for a Venetian/Carthaginian fusion for Argos, so although some units will look similar, they'll likely have a different reason and backstory for their appearance and formation. I'm finishing up on Stygia right now: very difficult making decent Egyptian-style units for some reason.

[christof139]

Certainly, I just applied Condioterri SOG's formula http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1700190&highlight=pikemen+use+pikes+more+often#post1700190]as seen here. It isn't anything to do with weapon reach, but proximity between enemy soldiers. I find it very useful personally, though for some reason it doesn't work with all people, not sure why that is.



Good grief, I hadn't actually counted the number! I only have three or four for poor Zingara so far...

I'm making most of the Corinthian professional units mercenaries, but the levies and elites will be unique to Corinthia. Because Argos is a "younger" kingdom than Corinthia it would have a more traditional "hyborian" militia as opposed to the hoplites, but they will have a few shared units where logical. I'm going for a Venetian/Carthaginian fusion for Argos, so although some units will look similar, they'll likely have a different reason and backstory for their appearance and formation. I'm finishing up on Stygia right now: very difficult making decent Egyptian-style units for some reason.

Oh yes, you counted them : "I had initially only wanted to make four or five uniquely Corinthian troops, but I had so much fun making them I added a good dozen or so! Hopefully I can round out the other factions as fully."

Interesting idea about Argos and mixing of Venetian/Cartaginian types, but there wan't much difference between Carthaginians of mid 3rd Century BC and Hellenistic Heavy Inf. and Peltast types. Not too much is known about Carthaginian Heavy and Peltast Inf. types except that Hannibal rearmed and armored his heavy Inf. with captured Roman equipment. There is one Carthaginian grave stele showing a Liby-Phoenecian Hoplite type, but whether his spear was a short Phoenician/Asian or longer Hoplite spear is actually unknown, as is the question of if the Carthaginians ever did adapt the sarissa or similar longer pike. It's not known positively if Carthage ever fully Hellenized its Carthaginain and Liby-Phonecian troops, but it seems that they did to a large degree, so maybe not too much difference between carthaginain and Hellenistic armor, weapons, and troop appearance wit respect to the mid to late period Carthaginian and Liby-Phoenician Heavy and Peltast type Infantry. The available surviving orignal info. is rather sketchy and not wholly definitive.

I have to go back and read what Howard states about Argos and Corinthia, as off hand I thought they were fromed at about the same time for about the same reasons. Been some time since I read Howard's actual and way too brief descriptions and background.

For Zingara, Medieval Spanish and Portugese seem to fit the bill, with some rapiers thrown in from the Rennaissance. Crossbows maybe for some conjectural added flavor??

It's interesting and fun problemizing etc. about all this.

Chris

PS: Millenium = singular, and Millenia = plural. Someone will eventually notice this if it is wrong in a description.

[Taranaich]

Well, I only said a good dozen as a rough guess, I thought I was overshooting it!

The reason I chose Carthaginians for Argos is the fact that, like Carthage, Argos seems to rely on mercenaries for their land military, and galleys for the navy. The Argus, Tito's ship in Queen of the Black Coast was a "high-prowed, broadwaisted galley", and the Venture (the ship he hijacked in Hour of the Dragon) was also a galley. Conan sees galleons, carracks, galleys and dromonds in Messantia, so Argos appears to have quite a full and varied navy, but galleys seem to be the preferred mode of transport of the Hyborian age, since the Hyrkanians use them too. I would presume that galleys are trade and support vessels, and the carracks the standard military unit, with galleon ships-of-the-line and dromonds secondary military ships.

We know Argos was founded after Corinthia from Hour of the Dragon:

"The barbarians who overthrew Acheron set up new kingdoms," quoted Orastes. "Where the empire had stretched now rose realms called Aquilonia, and Nemedia, and Argos, from the tribes that founded them. The older kingdoms of Ophir, Corinthia and western Koth, which had been subject to the kings of Acheron, regained their independence with the fall of the empire."

So basically according to this and the Hyborian Age essay, Ophir, Corinthia, Koth, Zingara and Hyperborea are the original Hyborian kingdoms, with Aquilonia, Nemedia, Argos, Brythunia and the Border Kingdom being founded after Acheron's fall. The original kingdoms will have a number of "ancient" troop types and a few Medieval ones, while the new nations will mostly consist of recognisable Medieval ones.

However, it should be noted that Zingara was conquered by Hyborians after it was initially founded, possibly during or after Acheron's fall, giving it the characteristics of a "new" Hyborian nation like more advanced technologies.

(also, I was going to put "millenia", but Firefox's spellchecker didn't recognise it, so I changed it )

[christof139]

""The barbarians who overthrew Acheron set up new kingdoms," quoted Orastes. "Where the empire had stretched now rose realms called Aquilonia, and Nemedia, and Argos, from the tribes that founded them. The older kingdoms of Ophir, Corinthia and western Koth, which had been subject to the kings of Acheron, regained their independence with the fall of the empire."

Yes, I see. Thanx for pointing that out about Argos and Corinthia etc. I missed it if you posted it previosuly, and haven't gone back and reread what howard said. I don't have to actually since you heve it down pretty pat!!!

Now, here's the problem with the term 'galley'. Galleys as the classical Roman and Greek galleys and even later Medieval Mediterranean Sea European galleys were not very seaworthy. However, the term galley is also applied loosely to Byzantine galleys or Dromons. So, which of these galley types is Howard referring to??

Since in Howard's stories the galleys of Hyboria sailed th large open sea, I tend to think of thenm more as Bzyantine Dromon-type affairs, although the classical galley looks better, including those used in the Mediterranean by Europeans in Medieval and Ren. Era times, like the ones at Lepanto etc. the Byzantine Dromons sem to have had a much higher freeboard and deeper hulls and I don't think most or maybe any of them had rams. I like rams.

So, I don't know how detailed you plan to get on the Naval aspects but this would be a quandry for me. I guess I would just alter a Droman-type with a little streamlining to the bow and add a ram. Rams are neat.

Sor Shem and Stygia, maybe Arabic Dhows and some sort of galley would also be appropriate.

Back to somewhat dry land, river bottom, deltaic, and swampland. Ever think of using Crocodile/Alligator armor for some of the Stygians?? That would look unique, and early Egyptians used it. Seems the Stygians were a bit ancient/primitive concerning armor and weapons that they used.

I have to load-up MTW2 and see what the Naval units look like, as I have not viewed this game yet. Everything you need for ships may be there. Less work.

BTW, I really liked your render of the Hyperborean King. It fits well with what Howard describes.

Chris

P: Don't forget lamellar armor and leather types of armor for some of the troops. Turanians and Hykranians would look good with some units with lamellar armor. You've done some real sharp work already.