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Thread: Yay for vigilantes!

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Yay for vigilantes!

    I'm glad I live in the US of A, where people are not prohibited by police state governments from working together to improve their lives.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/ny...rssnyt&emc=rss

    New Haven

    Eliezer Greer walked out of the Yeshiva of New Haven at dusk on Tuesday armed with a walkie-talkie in his hand and a loaded pistol at his side. Alfred Brooks Jr., 58, a former marine, was checking the batteries in his flashlight. Mr. Greer, 27, handed him the walkie-talkie.

    Good news, Mr. Greer said: Their neighborhood, near Edgewood Park in the city’s western end, was quiet this evening. But he advised Mr. Brooks to keep an eye on the crowd of young people on Hobart Street.

    For the past two months, Mr. Greer, Mr. Brooks and fellow volunteers in the Edgewood Park Defense Patrol — half of whom carry guns — have walked and biked through this neighborhood nightly to bring a sense of safety to an area they said had experienced an increase in crime and a decrease in police patrols.

    Though Mayor John DeStefano Jr. has called the patrols a “recipe for disaster,” members of the group said that they had not once pulled out a gun, and the authorities acknowledged that violent crime had gone down in Edgewood since the patrols began.

    “The last thing we want to do is draw a weapon,” said Mr. Greer, the founder of the defense patrol and the director of the Edgewood Neighborhood Association. “We have one agenda: clearing the neighborhood of thugs and getting people who work all day, pay mortgages, send kids to college, to enjoy the homes they’ve invested in.”

    Earlier, Mr. Greer made his rounds with another member of the patrol, Avi Hack, 32. Their attire incorporated elements of Orthodox Judaism and a quasi police force: a skullcap; an undergarment with fringes, called tzitzit; and a black T-shirt that had “Edgewood Park Defense Patrol” on the back. Mr. Greer also carried a gun.

    As Mr. Greer and Mr. Hack walked the streets, some lined with restored Victorian homes and others not so tidy, they searched for any signs of trouble.

    Typically, patrol members call the police if something looks suspicious, although they decided that the youths and the car posed no threat. They spent most of their time chatting with passers-by in this diverse neighborhood, which has a large racial minority population in addition to many Jewish residents.

    “Keep patrolling,” pleaded Lakeisha Singleton, a lawyer who had pulled her car to the side of the road to greet Mr. Greer. Her 1-year-old son, Michael, sat in a car seat in back. “We need you here,” Ms. Singleton said.

    Though crime has been cut in half in New Haven over the last two decades and is down 10 percent over all this year from the year before, shootings are up about 50 percent this year, and Mr. Greer has called for the police chief, Francisco Ortiz, to resign.

    Mr. Greer and his father, Rabbi Daniel Greer, dean of the yeshiva, have spent the last two decades restoring more than 40 dilapidated homes here and leasing them at no profit to low- and middle-income families. As a result, the neighborhood “has been on the upswing” since its days as a haunt for prostitutes in the 1980s, said Elizabeth McCormack, the neighborhood’s alderwoman.

    But in recent years, the crime that once plagued the neighborhood began to return, and the Greers raised the idea of armed patrols after they said they got little help from the police. Crime worsened this spring, coming to a head when Mr. Greer’s brother, Dov, a rabbi like his father, was followed into his Edgewood home by several young men and assaulted.

    A day later, the nightly patrols, from 6 to 10 p.m., began. At Mr. Greer’s request, the Guardian Angels, the volunteer crime-watch group based in New York, came and set up separate unarmed patrols.

    But it is the weapons carried by Mr. Greer and other patrol members, not the patrols themselves, that have caused a stir. Nine of the patrol’s 18 members carry guns, which is legal in New Haven as long as the citizen has a state permit.

    Mr. Greer said the patrol includes Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews, and non-Jews. Five members are black and one Hispanic, he said. The group says that its racial makeup has eased fears that armed Jews would be chasing down black youths.

    In an interview, Mr. Ortiz, the police chief, applauded Mr. Greer and others in Edgewood, saying their actions had spurred other areas to initiate neighborhood watches. And he said major criminal activity in the neighborhood had quieted since June.

    But he said he did not support their carrying weapons.

    At least one member of the patrol agreed with the chief: Mr. Brooks, who does not carry a gun. If patrol members carry firearms, he said, the criminals will counter with bigger ones.

    On Tuesday, Mr. Brooks walked by Hobart Street, finding it relatively quiet. Though they have been patrolling for only two months, Mr. Brooks and other patrol members said residents were beginning to feel safe again.

    “They have a right to,” Mr. Greer said. “And if the thugs won’t give us the right, and the police won’t, we’ll give ourselves the right.”


    Let's hope this is a sign of increasing citizen initiative and self-reliability, and a sign of a lessening of fears spurred by anti-gun groups emotionalism and lies.

    Not to mention, a nail in the coffin of outrageous claims that actions like this will result in random violence, that citizens are unable or shouldn't handle firearms, etc.

    CR
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    It's only too bad that they're still paying for police protection that they're no longer getting.
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    Simulation Monkey Member The_Mark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    I'm glad I live in the US of A, where people are not prohibited by police state governments from working together to improve their lives.
    I, for one, am content in living in a country where we don't need a citizens' militia.

    Admittedly, though, I'd have a militia over nothing were there a need, provided the militia doesn't get out of the line.

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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    I'm glad I live in the US of A, where people are not prohibited by police state governments from working together to improve their lives.
    So you are glad you don't live in North Korea , big deal .

    Wow a neighbourhood watch that will call the police , how innovative .

    Let's hope this is a sign of increasing citizen initiative and self-reliability, and a sign of a lessening of fears spurred by anti-gun groups emotionalism and lies.
    What about the "vigilante" who says that carrying guns will just lead to the criminals getting bigger guns ?
    I suppose he must be one those who are spurred by lies eh .

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    I'm a bit confused here. I understand the need for vigilantes to work with cops, but why are they doing they work in broad daylight? Shouldn't daytime be used to discuss other people's guilt, with their subsequent "activity" confined to nighttime? Also, isn't a bit dangerous to go around revealing their identities?

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    What I see here is a police with no balls. If there was crime in my area and police were too afraid to go there, I'd also try to found something similar. But so far that hasn't happened, so as long as the policemen do their job, I don't see the need fo such a militia.


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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

    Let's hope this is a sign of increasing citizen initiative and self-reliability, and a sign of a lessening of fears spurred by anti-gun groups emotionalism and lies.

    Not to mention, a nail in the coffin of outrageous claims that actions like this will result in random violence, that citizens are unable or shouldn't handle firearms, etc.

    CR
    You missed a bit to bold:


    At least one member of the patrol agreed with the chief: Mr. Brooks, who does not carry a gun. If patrol members carry firearms, he said, the criminals will counter with bigger ones.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    This kind of citzen watch groups always end badly. Not surprsing considering there usually run by Non-Texans
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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Also, isn't a bit dangerous to go around revealing their identities?
    If you have something to fear from the criminals, sure. Any violent action on the criminal's part would probably cause a stronger police reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by STFS
    This kind of citzen watch groups always end badly.
    It would be better if they carried the non-lethal pepper-spray guns and tasers.

    If they want to patrol the area, good luck and good hunting. If the criminals have to hide something then they will get bigger guns but larger guns means some dealings that require the FBI or policemen.
    Last edited by Marshal Murat; 08-19-2007 at 23:35.
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    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mark
    I, for one, am content in living in a country where we don't need a citizens' militia.
    Oh, so you have no crime in your country then?

    This kind of citzen watch groups always end badly.
    Bah, you're just miffed you couldn't do the same thing in Texas.

    It would be better if they carried the non-lethal pepper-spray guns and tasers.
    Why? So they couldn't defend themselves as well?

    You missed a bit to bold:
    Less than 6% of the group thinks that - hmmm.

    It seems people are confused about 'bigger guns' - do you guys actually think they criminals will just get larger caliber weapons, and that somehow these are automatically more effective?

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Oh, so you have no crime in your country then?
    I can't really talk for him but I guess he lives in a country where the police do their job. Whether you have two neighborhood watch guys patrol a street or two policemen is pretty much the same. If the police doesn't do that for some reason, then they're not doing their job properly and you should elect some minority party like the green party at the next elections until someone makes them patrol the street again.
    It's a bit harder with a two-party system especially if both parties won't make them patrol more, but then maybe it's time for some bigger changes.
    Well, or you can form such neighborhood patrols which might or might not help, depending on how criminals react to them. Soon they will have to establish CSI teams though, which can be quite expensive, or do they just plan to execute the next best suspect if a murder happened?


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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    If you have something to fear from the criminals, sure. Any violent action on the criminal's part would probably cause a stronger police reaction.
    Pannonian was giving you the mafia-player's take on things Marshall.

    Gotcha.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    If you have something to fear from the criminals, sure. Any violent action on the criminal's part would probably cause a stronger police reaction.
    The criminals are killers, that's why they were noticed in the first place. Police can establish guilt, but they can't do much else, unless they're allowed to turn vigilante. Anyway, we all know that, useful though vigilantes can be, it is the lynch mob that is the main weapon in dealing with gangs in the neighbourhood.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    This is not vilantilism, this is a simple neighbourhood watch. It sounds like they're doing a good job at present, but it's a poor reflection on the police - people who supposedly are trained and paid to do this sort of thing.

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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Why? So they couldn't defend themselves as well?
    So all those women with pepper-spray would be better off with .45 in their purses? Half of them couldn't carry a .45, much less aim a hand-gun.
    Using non-lethal weaponry allows them to cut crime while no killing any-one. If every time a policeman used a load of bullets to arrest someone, we would have more dead people, grieving families, and alot of trouble. Using batons and tasers prevents needless or accidental deaths.

    If the place is such a hot-bed of violent activity then the police should be stepping up patrols, but this just sounds like some men taking the welfare of the people into their own hands. While they may be doing a good job, they are paying taxes for police. The neighborhood watch is a good thing to do, but to put more guns on the street and force anyone carrying on illegal operations to buy more guns, the jury is still out.

    Accidents happen, it's only human. I would rather the accident be pepper-spray into the eyes or a taser shock, not a bullet in the eyes or a bullet shot.
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    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Oh, so you have no crime in your country then?
    I am not sure, there might not be any, but I have a vague memory of one house in my old neighborhood who got robbed 10 years or so ago. If that happened, then that is the only crime that has ever taken place there, at least in the 16 years I lived there. The rest of my life I've lived in the army and in a farming district, so no real neighborhood.

    Although the Royal Marines stirred quite a lot of trouble at the(only) local pub in my army year. But they got their ass kicked by the british MP's in no time...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Police can only rarely prevent crime. Most of the time they can only react to it.

    A police presence on a more-or-less constant basis -- "walking a beat" -- is the only consistent means for police to reliably prevent most violent crime. Moreover, we're talking about a pair of cops constantly patrolling a few blocks of a city or one or two neighborhoods in a suburb. Do you have any inkling of how much that would cost?

    Historically, community justice has been the most dominant and successful form for crime prevention.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    I daresay stability, both political and economical, has been/is the most successful form of crime prevention.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    So all those women with pepper-spray would be better off with .45 in their purses? Half of them couldn't carry a .45, much less aim a hand-gun.
    Using non-lethal weaponry allows them to cut crime while no killing any-one.
    Do you know what they say about assuming? Perhaps you shouldn't be so misogynistic with your assumptions.

    Non lethal weapons are markedly less effective at stopping an imminent threat. A gun will stop a threat much quicker than pepper spray - which will not stop someone from charging you, is only effective on one small location on the body, and has very limited range, and doesn't physically impair movement.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    This is not vilantilism, this is a simple neighbourhood watch. It sounds like they're doing a good job at present, but it's a poor reflection on the police - people who supposedly are trained and paid to do this sort of thing.
    I agree on all points.

    At least one member of the patrol agreed with the chief: Mr. Brooks, who does not carry a gun. If patrol members carry firearms, he said, the criminals will counter with bigger ones.
    What a silly statement. The guns they already have are quite capable of killing- no need for "bigger" guns.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Shhh that goes against the mantra.

    'Guns don't kill people, people kill people.'
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Yeah, the whole "criminals will just counter with bigger guns" bit is horseradish. Criminals are just quite predictable -- they want to get their money with the lowest level of effort. If two houses have dogs and good locks, and a third does not, they're going to hit the third house. They're not going to spend time and money on dog tranquilizers and sophisticated lockpicks.

    Likewise, a gun is a gun. Even a .22 is plenty enough to maim or kill a human being (remember, aim for the head). If a criminal knows darn well that the members of a neighborhood watch may be armed, he will avoid the area. These aren't super-creatures who mutate and evolve to counter every effort. They're just people. Usually lazy people.

    An armed neighborhood watch is a fine idea for an area in which the police cannot or will not keep the peace. The only issue is making sure that the people on the watch don't let it go to their heads. One innocent shot down will be all the excuse the city needs to break them up, so carefully, lads, carefully now.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Something I was wondering about from the start:

    It may be expensive to have the police patrol the area, but who pays the neighborhood watch?


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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    A good initiative, but rather than reflecting well on the 'vigilantes' it reflects rather more badly on the police. As has been said to be effective they need to walk the beat, but how to do that when tied up in paperwork?
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    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    I guess the words "bigger guns" shouldn't be taken literally, he's probably just stating the obvious: If people arm themselves better, criminals (who are also people of course, but let's keep them separate to avoid confusion) will do the same. Not by buying "bigger" guns, rather more guns and carry them more often.
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    Simulation Monkey Member The_Mark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Oh, so you have no crime in your country then?
    Did I ever claim that there wasn't? Granted, there is crime, I just don't feel that threatened by it as to go and raise a militia. There are, after all, some places in the world where the police can actually keep the law in sufficient measure.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Something I was wondering about from the start:

    It may be expensive to have the police patrol the area, but who pays the neighborhood watch?
    In the USA, neighborhood watch and/or quasi vigilante programs are largely volunteer. The time/resources used by local government to oversee same is fairly small. Can't call them "free," but they are relatively inexpensive. They are also extremely effective on a "dollar-spent versus criminal aprehended" basis.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    In the USA, neighborhood watch and/or quasi vigilante programs are largely volunteer. The time/resources used by local government to oversee same is fairly small. Can't call them "free," but they are relatively inexpensive. They are also extremely effective on a "dollar-spent versus criminal aprehended" basis.
    "criminal apprehended"? I thought the idea of such groups was prevention rather than enforcement?
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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

    Historically, community justice has been the most dominant and successful form for crime prevention.
    Here in St Louis we have a lot of crime. But there is one place where there is hardly any. Its called the Hill. Its in the midde of St Louis and there is no crime. Why you ask? Its the Italian district. They police themselves and any "visitors" they might have. You can leave your doors unlocked and your windows down. We need cops, but we also need citizens to take car of things.
    RIP Tosa

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    Default Re: Yay for vigilantes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
    Here in St Louis we have a lot of crime. But there is one place where there is hardly any. Its called the Hill. Its in the midde of St Louis and there is no crime. Why you ask? Its the Italian district. They police themselves and any "visitors" they might have. You can leave your doors unlocked and your windows down. We need cops, but we also need citizens to take car of things.
    The only time I ever lock my door, is when I'll be gone for a day or more. I only close the windows when I'm going on holiday, to prevent rain inside. When I'm home, and it's not cold, I leave the door wide open.

    But curiously, there's no militia here, nor have I ever been robbed... I wonder why.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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