Question about numbers in RTW/EB and reality

[Calypze]

I wonder if the size of an average RTW/EB army (i.e a few thousand) corresponds to the average size of the real of the age. If one check up various battles that took place during the time, for example battles between the Romans and Pyrrhus, or battles between the Romans and Carthaginians, the numbers of the armies can be like 40 000 infantry, 5000 cavalry, 20 war elephants. And these are obviously much higher than the size of an average RTW/EB army, except for the numbers of war elephants.

Similarly, according to what I've read, cities like Alexandria had over a million inhabitants, i.e much more than they have in RTW/EB.

I'm not putting this as criticism, as it is probably not possible to implement it (heck, a battle of over 80 000 soldiers would strangle even the best computer), but I want to get this straight

[Warmaster Horus]

I remember a thread about adjusting unit sizes... Might want to check the unofficial mods subforum.

I don't know overall, but for example a Roman Legion (around 5,500 men in reality) in EB is around 3000 men.

[Ludens]

The standard consular army of the Romans during the Polybian era consisted of 2 legions and 2 alea's of each 5000 men. During emergencies, the two conculs would join armies, resulting in troop totals of 40,000 men or higher. However, the R:TW engine is limited to 20 units per army, and 260 men + 3 officers per unit, so it cannot be used to represent these numbers.

Similarly, population can be modded but unfortunatly the associated squalor penalty cannot. A city with a million inhabitants would have such a high squalor level that it would be impossible to keep under control (and population would decrease rapidly as well). Of course, since almost the entire population count of a city can be recruited, I guess it represents households rather than actual inhabitants.

[Cybvep]

IIRC, the team stated somewhere that they use unit numbers just to balance them, and there is no 1:10 scale or sth.

Although population is also lowered, you must remember that the "population" in RTW is just sth like "potential recruits". As in Antiquity women couldn't be warriors (excluding some instances in "barbarian" and nomad cultures), children are just children, and there are also always some old or crippled people (plus some thieves and bandits that won't join the army), the RTW "population" numbers aren't really that terrible. You can change the name from the "population" to the "potential recruits" in Data/text/strat.txt (yes, I know, I'm quite pedantic about such things...).

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yeah, for example the amount of soldiers in Eastern slinger units got reduced to 60 instead of 80 on large settings one time...
If we had something as a scale model, that would've messed it up - but luckily we don't and luckily unit balancement is all that matters (to us) when it comes to numbers...

[mirmorix]

OT maybe...
I have a question why is population in celtic cities so low??? Except in mediolanium -when i must fight with romans/they have more money and population, better economic etc./ i havent population to recruit soldiers or retrainig and romans can recruit from their cities more and more full stacks of their soldiers.. It may help increase population in gauls border cities- in history when gauls figt with romans they have large armies which in many times outnumbered romans.

p.s. sorry for my english

[Calypze]

Thanks for the answers.

As for city population, it seems true that the inhabitant number should rather represent households or something, but I though that the 400 non-recruitable represented women and children and others who wouldn't serve in an army.

[Centurion Crastinus]

There was a post a few months back that describes the ratio between a real roman legion and the corresponding amount of units for a legion. I finally found it last night. I hope this helps.

These are based on documentaries from the History Channel, Wikipedia, and the book Roman Warfare (by Adrian Goldsoworthy).

Camillan/Polybian Period:
*15 units+General:
*4 Skirmishers (in Camillan Period 2 Leves, and either 2 Roarii or 1 Roarii and 1 Ascenci)
*4 Hastati
*4 Principes
*2 Triarii
*1 Equites Romanii

This is the most historically accurate Legion, based on the 4500 troops Legions of the Late Camillan/Polybian Period. Each of these Legions would include 300 Cavalry, 600 Triarii, 1200 Skirmishers, 1200 Hastati, and 1200 Principes

Most of the Allies fought in much the same manner as the Romans, using the same types of troops and formations. To show Allies appropriately it would be best to substitue the Hastati for Hastati Samnitici, the Triarii for Heavy Samnite Infantry, the Skirmishers for Lucanian Light Infantry, and the Equites Romanii for Equites Extraordinarii.

Marian (The numbers here are quite wonky from EB limitations for numbers):
*13 units+General:
*2 Units of Cohors Evocata, to represent the First Cohort, which had double the size of a regular cohort and was composed of veterans who had seen a minimum of 16 or 20 years of action.
*9 units of Cohors Reformata, to represent the other nine Cohorts of the Legion.
*2 Units of Cavalry Auxilia (the Roman one), to represent the cavalry units of the Roman Legion.


These are based on the 6000 soldier number Legion put forth by Goldsworthy. Of these six hundred were Cavalry, divided into two units of 300 (Each subdivided into units of 30). Of the remaining units nine were Legionnary Cohorst of 480 soldiers, and the elite First Cohort of 960 soldiers. To represent Auxiliaries you may use Antesignai (who could represent light infantry auxiliary units), along with Skirmishers from the Region (mercenaries) such as thraikoi Peltastai, etc.

The only diference with the Augustan Legions is:
*Cavalry must be Auxiliary Cavalry from the nearest Roman Province (Gallic if in Gaul or Britain, Iberian if in Spain, etc.).
*Skirmishers should be regionals from the nearest Roman Province.
*Auxiliaries can be represented with either the Vanilla Auxiliaries, or regionals recruited from the nearest Roman Province.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There was a post a few months back that describes the ratio between a real roman legion and the corresponding amount of units for a legion. I finally found it last night. I hope this helps.

These are based on documentaries from the History Channel, Wikipedia, and the book Roman Warfare (by Adrian Goldsoworthy).

Camillan/Polybian Period:
*15 units+General:
*4 Skirmishers (in Camillan Period 2 Leves, and either 2 Roarii or 1 Roarii and 1 Ascenci)
*4 Hastati
*4 Principes
*2 Triarii
*1 Equites Romanii

This is the most historically accurate Legion, based on the 4500 troops Legions of the Late Camillan/Polybian Period. Each of these Legions would include 300 Cavalry, 600 Triarii, 1200 Skirmishers, 1200 Hastati, and 1200 Principes

Most of the Allies fought in much the same manner as the Romans, using the same types of troops and formations. To show Allies appropriately it would be best to substitue the Hastati for Hastati Samnitici, the Triarii for Heavy Samnite Infantry, the Skirmishers for Lucanian Light Infantry, and the Equites Romanii for Equites Extraordinarii.

Marian (The numbers here are quite wonky from EB limitations for numbers):
*13 units+General:
*2 Units of Cohors Evocata, to represent the First Cohort, which had double the size of a regular cohort and was composed of veterans who had seen a minimum of 16 or 20 years of action.
*9 units of Cohors Reformata, to represent the other nine Cohorts of the Legion.
*2 Units of Cavalry Auxilia (the Roman one), to represent the cavalry units of the Roman Legion.


These are based on the 6000 soldier number Legion put forth by Goldsworthy. Of these six hundred were Cavalry, divided into two units of 300 (Each subdivided into units of 30). Of the remaining units nine were Legionnary Cohorst of 480 soldiers, and the elite First Cohort of 960 soldiers. To represent Auxiliaries you may use Antesignai (who could represent light infantry auxiliary units), along with Skirmishers from the Region (mercenaries) such as thraikoi Peltastai, etc.

The only diference with the Augustan Legions is:
*Cavalry must be Auxiliary Cavalry from the nearest Roman Province (Gallic if in Gaul or Britain, Iberian if in Spain, etc.).
*Skirmishers should be regionals from the nearest Roman Province.
*Auxiliaries can be represented with either the Vanilla Auxiliaries, or regionals recruited from the nearest Roman Province.

Huh? The Marian Legion is 4800 homogenous infantry, likely no cavalry and certainly no double first cohort, which is an Augustan invention. The double strength cohort was 800 men because it was composed of five not six centuries. Even then the legion is 5120 infantry and 120 cavalry.

As far as the earlier Camillian legion goes it seems from Livy (not always reliable) that the Legion's entire strength was again some 5100, comprising 900 men of each infantry class divided into 15 manipules each, 300 cavalry and 300 leves or skirmishers with 20 attached to each maniple of Hastati.

With the Polybian reforms we see the number of maipules for the three remaining classes reduced to 10 and those of the Hastati and Princepes doubled in size. The cavalry remain 300 in number while the heavier velites were now 40 per maipule of infantry which would make them the same number as the Hastati and Princepes, 1200. The total then in this era is 4500 infantry and cavalry.

It is worth noting that some suggest that a tumae, the basic cavalry formation, comprised 30 men and 2 officers which would make the Camillian and Polybian cavalry 320 rather than 300. It is also worth noting that during the Macedonian wars the maipules of the Hastati and Princepes were increased to 160.

I don't know what's in Goldsworthy's book but the cavalry did not reach 600 in the citizen Legions until the time of Septimus Severus.