AI Battle Formation Mods

[Lysander13]

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

Lysander13 can you please upload another mirror not on filefront because filefront doesn't work for me? (and if it possible, not from megaupload too...)

[Lysander13]

No problem.....Perhaps this one will work for you....
http://www.zshare.net/download/521764016cecd8/

[AlExal]

I tried all AI mods and liked Sinuhet's AI most of all.
But there is a problem: elephants behave themself rather stupid.
Instead of crashing enemy orders they stay aside and throw missles. It seems that AI can't use them. Is there a way to solve this problem?

[Lysander13]

Originally Posted by AlExal

I tried all AI mods and liked Sinuhet's AI most of all.

That makes 2 of us.

But there is a problem: elephants behave themself rather stupid.
Instead of crashing enemy orders they stay aside and throw missles. It seems that AI can't use them. Is there a way to solve this problem?

Well the AI in general is rather stupid no matter what formations are being used....but hell, stupid AI is a rather common theme in most computer games. More to the point, i take it you mean you've seen elephant units discharge all their missiles and then do nothing but sit there? or do you just want them to barrel into battle lines and missiles be damned? Anyhow, I have seen both occur as i'm sure most who have played RTW for any length of time...Not necessarily using Sinuhet Formations for EB ( not yet anyway..but i'm sure i will at some point )..i've seen it in Vanilla and other formation mods, not to mention other mods in general that say they have "optimized" settings to go along with their formation systems. So to answer question..**shrugs**
who knows?..your guess is as good as mine. For a more so to speak detailed answer...this has to do with the battlefield role flags as of course everything on the battlefield is as it's relative to formations but what's not absolutely clear to me sometimes it's how these flags interact with hardcoded AI routines. Sure i know there's a general idea of what these flags do...however it's tricky to discern when they toggle during the flow of battle so to speak.
Sorry...the AI is just dumb in general. I love playing RTW with great mods like EB....but it's never been because of the AI.

[AlExal]

No no. I haven't said that AI is stupid. I've just said that AI can't use elephants. For exampe it knows how to use skurmish cav or archers. Right? It doesn't make archers charge melee. It uses them in a right way. Some people say that in vanilla AI general uses elephants in best way. And in most AI mods he doesn't know what to do with them.
Mod is nearley perfect, and I enjoy playing it because I like history of those times, atmospere it creates. I can't name all it's features)
But this thread is about AI. Right? So I post my questions about it there.

[Lysander13]

No no. I haven't said that AI is stupid. I've just said that AI can't use elephants. For exampe it knows how to use skurmish cav or archers. Right? It doesn't make archers charge melee. It uses them in a right way. Some people say that in vanilla AI general uses elephants in best way. And in most AI mods he doesn't know what to do with them.
Mod is nearley perfect, and I enjoy playing it because I like history of those times, atmospere it creates. I can't name all it's features)
But this thread is about AI. Right? So I post my questions about it there.

My pardons friend...I did not mean to come across rather gruff so to speak, if that's what you inferred. I assure you that was not my intent. I was bored at work and went on a rant apparantly but i understood perfectly what you were saying. By all means friend, feel free to discuss all things AI related in this thread. You make a good point on how the elephants were used in Vanilla and how it differs from their use in AI mods, for example like Darth's & Sinuhet's. In vanilla, if i recall correctly, elephants were pretty much grouped in with regular cavalry. Which was why they charged in and didn't bother too much with skirmishing and the same could be said with skirmishing type cavalry for that matter, if i recall correctly. I remember people complaining that skirmishers didn't bother to skirmish. Where as in AI mods, the formations have been a bit more specialized and elephants have been assigned to skirmisher blocks for the most part along with perhaps chariots, missile infantry, or perhaps other missile cavalry depending on the formation and the formation block. The aim being for them to discharge their missiles and in the case of elephants and let's say horse archers or other missile cavalry, to charge in when they had spent a good amount of their ammunition, instead of charging in from the outset. At the same time, in the case of Sinuhet's Formations, manipulate the default_melee_state flag within the formation to influence skirmisher block behaviour..i.e.skirmish..fire_at_will..
engage_at_will..etc..Depending on the purpose flag.

Well it's pretty much been my experience that this works out pretty well. However, if i had to name a culprit as to perhaps why on occasions the AI doesn't seem to know what to do with elephants. I would guess it's because of the unit classification of heavy cavalry for elephants. In AI mods, like i said they are placed in skirmisher blocks...in EB's AI ( by AI i'm referring to descr_formations_ai.txt, BTW ) they are placed in their own block within a given formation, as oppose to being part of a skirmisher block, if i recall correctly. However, in both, they are placed in those respective blocks under unit_type elephants. Where as in vanilla there is no such occurrence in the descr_formations_ai.txt file. They are simply labeled as cavalry or heavy cavalry and are placed in blocks within the formations as such. BTW, the same is true for heavy_chariots. Perhaps the unit_type elephants tag, as it's relative to the formation blocks, confuses the AI on how exactly to utilize this unit. Don't get me wrong it is a working tag/code of course, in the sense that it places the elephants in the respective blocks when called upon. I'm only saying it wasn't used in vanilla as elephants and chariots for that matter, were classified as cavalry, heavy cavalry, and in the case of chariots a few instances of missile cavalry. Just an observation.....

Originally Posted by Lgk

If you ask me - yes, "missiles be damned". Elephants tend to lose most shootouts anyway. Esp stupid if they try it vs velites and artillery.

Right....Especially in EB where their not unstoppable M1 Abrams Tanks.

I found that increased "stat_charge_distance" in EDU forces them to make at least one initial charge, but after disengaging they love to bunch aside and start playing Robin Hood yet again. AI = Artificial Idiot.

I've toyed around alot with the stat_charge_distance stat in the EDU and to be honest, i'm not really sure it's worth the trouble. BTW Lgk, nice tip in the Steppe expansion thread.....

[Lgk]

...or do you just want them to barrel into battle lines and missiles be damned?

If you ask me - yes, "missiles be damned". Elephants tend to lose most shootouts anyway. Esp stupid if they try it vs velites and artillery.

I found that increased "stat_charge_distance" in EDU forces them to make at least one initial charge, but after disengaging they love to bunch aside and start playing Robin Hood yet again. AI = Artificial Idiot.

[worlddomination88]

So the AI is smarter with the Darth mod formations. Does this apply to 1.0?
And if im not mistaking somebody said that they tweaked things for battle formations in 1.0. Is the Darth mod formation still better than 1.0??

Or should I just leave it alone and keep playing 1.0

[Ludens]

Yes, this mod works with 1.0, and I think that the A.I. performs a little better. The R:TW will never win any prizes, but with Darth's or Sinuhet's formations it's a bit more proactive.

[olly]

Hello

These two mini mods have greatly improved the fun I have had but in the last couple of weeks I have been using Alexander instead of BI. How would these mods work with Alex?

Thanks

[NEver]

They work the same, pretty much. Unit size affects them more than anything.

[Leão magno]

Ave Lysander13, are those links bellow your sig updated? Or should I make some manual updates?

[Lysander13]

Ave Lysander13, are those links bellow your sig updated? Or should I make some manual updates?

Ave Leo,
The files are for the current version of EB, for that matter; they can be used with an older version ( but not any version before the Saba were added ) and the next version of EB as well, as the file structure in installing/unzipping the files remains the same. The only time this would need to be updated were if the factions were to change or of course i tweak these files, and/or added other changes to other files that have a direct relationship to these AI files. Which i may do, if i can ever find the free time to make these changes and test them thoroughly.

Originally Posted by olly

Hello

These two mini mods have greatly improved the fun I have had but in the last couple of weeks I have been using Alexander instead of BI. How would these mods work with Alex?

Thanks

They should work just fine. Unless you happen to be playing a mod-foldered mini-mod with EB that uses it's own formations but i don't think there's any of those around here, last i checked anyway. Glad your enjoying them olly..

[NEver]

So was that reinforcements bug ever fixed or...?

[Lysander13]

So was that reinforcements bug ever fixed or...?

Reinforcement battles in RTW have always been a rather buggy situation as I'm sure anyone who's played RTW or mod thereof can attest to. It's something I've experienced in vanilla, various mods with or without formation mods and even in EB with EB formations. One thing seems to be certain however at least to me if one happens to mess around with formations. It does seem if your off on the offsets granted in the attack/defend formation it can make a buggy situation worse. So the reverse should hold true or rather not totally eliminate the buggy reinforcing armies one may experience from time to time but perhaps limit how often such a thing a thing occurs. Really however I don't think it's truly been solved, at best limited in a manner of speaking.

[||Lz3||]

what's the diference between sinhuet's and darth's formations?

[||Lz3||]

I have a question why everytime I attack the enemy army refuses to engage?? I mean its like if they had some sort of "skirmish mode" on , I get close and then they start running back ...the whole army!!

Im using darth's 2nd version since I cant handle huge (playing w large) and also marcus camillus , I'm using alx.exe if that matters...