Regarding Hoplites in Some Mods

[TWFanatic]

Hello modders! My apologies the the moderators if I've posted in the wrong section, I'm rather new here and trying to find my way around this rather large forum can be hard.

Currently, I’m using the EB and SPQR mods (Darth mod is next!). They’re both excellent mods, but I’ve always been annoyed by two things with the hoplites.

Although their new overhand animations are excellent, unfortunately they fight like undisciplined, unorganized rabble. Rather than staying formed in a tight phalanx when engaged, they break up and fight little 1-on-1 battles like Celtic swordsmen. Guard mode only makes them fight terribly, and sometimes only half the unit will be engaged while the rest just stand in formation and do nothing. Plus, they don’t push forward like hoplites are supposed to, and those engaged most often break off formation anyways. Therefore guard mode does not suffice. The other problem is that flanking them, which should be deadly, is of hardly any consequence.

Both of these problems just go to show that they fight like normal spearmen with the exception of the overhand thrusting. So I decided to experiment, and after much failure, I finally discovered the perfect formula for hoplites.

I, of course, worked in the EDU file (of both SPQR and EB). This is what I did, with all numbers and percentages approximated:

-Remove secondary weapon (sword)
-Give primary weapon (spear) the “short_pike” attribute
-Vastly increase charge bonus
-Tighten formations
-Reduce attack attribute by 15%
-Decrease armor and defense skill attributes by 50% for armor and 25% for defense skill
-Add points removed from attack, armor, and defense skill attributes together. Increase the sum by 10%. Add the final number to the shield attribute.
-Optionally edit collision mass and charge distance

Hoplites now stay in a tight formation and don’t break off in melee thanks to the short_pike attribute. I don’t know why, but this makes all the difference. Better yet, they push forward, driving the enemy back as if they were in the phalanx formation without guard mode (turn guard mode off on phalanx units and you’ll find they push forward). In fact, they hold their formation - without guard mode - as if they were in a phalanx, but with one notable difference: They are far more flexible due to their being able to run and charge like hoplites really could.

High shield defense means they’re almost impregnable from the front, but thanks to reduced armor and defense skill attributes, they’re highly vulnerable to flanking and missiles in the right flank (non shield-carrying side) and rear. The reduced attack and inflated overall defense is to reflect the historical reality that in hoplite battles, very few men would until one of the formations broke.

Btw, I’ve done the same thing (albeit to a lesser degree) with the pikemen. Thanks to higher shield defense and lower other defense, they are now more vulnerable to flanking maneuvers and just as impregnable from the front.

I wanted to share this discovery with the public since I know it has made the Hellenic factions in the mods I'm using much more exciting, historically accurate, and realistic.

I’d like to finish with a word of respect to the modders who created EB and SPQR, all of whom are vastly better and more experienced than I am. Your work has immensely improved RTW and provided countless hours of playtime for many. Thank you!

[TWFanatic]

Are those crickets I hear? It sure is quiet around here.

[Makanyane]

tis the sounds of modders brains quietly whirring.....

your theory sounded very interesting though I don't personally have the need for any improved hoplites at the moment (vampires not being known for that sort of thing)

one thing did strike me though, you mentioned removing the secondary weapon in EDU, do you not then also have to remove the second skeleton animation from descr_model_battle.txt ? I'm also not sure if ignoring the fact the model would have had two weapons assigned to it could cause you problems or not.... assume as it seems to be working for you that it doesn't.

The change to the way the defence values are assigned certainly seems to make sense for hoplites. Don't know if you've seen the new guide to EDU at: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88859 it might be interesting to compare your findings to what it says in that. I suppose the only point of concern might be for the shield defence that says:

[shield] : Unit's shield value, taken into account against both ranged and melee attacks, but only when they come from the front or the right side. Against missiles from the front it offers twice the protection it's value suggests. Measures the blocking capabilities of a unit's shield. Max value is 31 and everything higher will be considered 31.

....whether that would make them a bit more impervious to missile fire than they really should be?

[christof139]

"one thing did strike me though, you mentioned removing the secondary weapon in EDU, do you not then also have to remove the second skeleton animation from descr_model_battle.txt ? I'm also not sure if ignoring the fact the model would have had two weapons assigned to it could cause you problems or not.... assume as it seems to be working for you that it doesn't."

I haven't tried this yet, but it may be true that if you remove the 2ndary weapon it automatically snuffs the animation for it since the unit is then capable of only using its primary weapon and associated animation.

Makes sense to me, but then ...

Chris

[TWFanatic]

Thank you for the feedback!

one thing did strike me though, you mentioned removing the secondary weapon in EDU, do you not then also have to remove the second skeleton animation from descr_model_battle.txt ? I'm also not sure if ignoring the fact the model would have had two weapons assigned to it could cause you problems or not.... assume as it seems to be working for you that it doesn't.

You can actually have a secondary sword model for units that carry only spears. They sword model has absolutely no effect. The Hoplites in SPQR are an example of this.

Excellent thread btw, thanks for the link. I still have a few things to learn about the EDU file.

....whether that would make them a bit more impervious to missile fire than they really should be?

Very good point. I hadn't tested thoroughly vs missile units when I first posted this - only in melee. I did so yesterday though, using EB, and here are the results:
From the front and slightly less so from the right side, they're almost invulnerable. It's hard for missile units to cause casualties amongst phalanxes head-on in EB without these modifications anyways. They mainly just disorder the formation, and the larger the unit size setting the longer it takes to reform.
Due to lower armor, however, it's easier to kill phalanxes - Hoplite and Macedonian styles - with missiles and melee weapons.

Overall, I personally find the results highly desirable. My Hoplites and Phalangites are now even harder to beat from the front (whereas before hoplites fought without a resemble of a formation and were thus easy to break).

One of the best ways to beat them from the front is to concentrate missile and artillery fire on one small space in the line - usually whatever appears the weakest or most disordered place in the line - then flood some of your forces through there while the rest remain in reserve. If the enemy phalanxes break the line and turn inwards to help the wavering phalanx, you can pounce on their flanks. If they hold the line, you can blast a gap in it and flood your forces through, thus surrounding the phalanx line. And due to lower armor and defense skill stats, it's easy to kill the phalanxes now that they're surrounded.

Of course, the easiest way to beat phalanxes is still to flank them - now even easier to do.

[Zar]

Is there anyway you could post your EDU? I am having trouble everytime I attempt to do this, mainly from trying to remove their swords, I just cant seem to get it.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

tis the sounds of modders brains quietly whirring.....

your theory sounded very interesting though I don't personally have the need for any improved hoplites at the moment (vampires not being known for that sort of thing)

one thing did strike me though, you mentioned removing the secondary weapon in EDU, do you not then also have to remove the second skeleton animation from descr_model_battle.txt ? I'm also not sure if ignoring the fact the model would have had two weapons assigned to it could cause you problems or not.... assume as it seems to be working for you that it doesn't.

The change to the way the defence values are assigned certainly seems to make sense for hoplites. Don't know if you've seen the new guide to EDU at: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88859 it might be interesting to compare your findings to what it says in that. I suppose the only point of concern might be for the shield defence that says:

....whether that would make them a bit more impervious to missile fire than they really should be?

You should really get a medal for continuing to be so helpful you know.

[TWFanatic]

Is there anyway you could post your EDU?

Sorry for the long wait with no response. I had stopped checking up on this thread.

Anyways...I would, but my EDU file is heavily modded in a lot of other areas as well. Not only to I have watcman's night battles & first cohorts mod, but I've also edited the stats of many of the EB units, something I can't resist doing with any mod.