Stirring false hope about pikes and halbs

[Doug-Thompson]

I'm going to regret this, but I'm also going to be very busy tomorrow and this needs a look.

It seems to me pikes and halbs (maybe billmen?) work better in MTW2's main game and in Kingdoms after Kingdoms is installed.

"Better" does not mean "good enough to please the devoted." However, some Spanish pikes made short work of some Apache braves last night. I tried Swiss pikemen against feudal knights in a custom battle, 1 vs. 1, and watched the knights die. I had to keep the Swiss in spearwall and they still lost against sword-armed, armored infantry (as they should) but they mopped the floor with some armored sergeants. I had to leave them in spearwall, engage and then order them to march through the spearmen, but they killed them to a man.

My biggest surprise of the night was watching Egyptian halbs in loose formation absolutely slaughter another group of armored sergeants, two times.

[Benandorf]

In 1.02 (and 1.03, though I don't think that changed anything), they've been doing just that for me. Pikemen will lose to Swords but beat spears head-on. After all, they're simply better, longer spears. Halberds beat them doubly because they are much better against armor and general killing.

Against Apache I have no experience, but since they have such low armor, that may have been a factor.

But I may be wrong/confused. I just have, in all my (slightly limited) experience with Pikemen, had that exact experience, unless I misunderstand.

[Miracle]

According to this post, pike units did seemed to be improved:

You will be happy to know that the pike units in kingdoms have been overhauled, their speed has been increased and they now wield their weapons correctly and we have also re-balanced their stats.

We know that Kingdoms stat balance changes don't affect the regular game, but they could use the same animation files, which could explain why pikes would work better in custom battles.

[Incongruous]

Does LTC 3.1 affect them in much the same way?
Or that MOD CA members released?

[Mr Frost]

I've tested pikes in Lands to Conquer which is supposed to have much of the fixes from Kingdoms .

The A.I. seems incapable of using them effectively at all .
I tried different units {swords and spears} against different Pike units and each time the A.I. insisted on trying to march with pikes raised {not leveled} through my infantry with only a very few making any attacks until they were mixed into my infantry , their ranks dissorded and were at least 1/3 depleted whence they drew swords , fought a short while then tried to walk back the way they came , obviously unable to run thus still in spearwall mode and they seemed to be trying to do the withdraw to recharge "maneuver" the A.I. likes to do in 1v1 custom . {The A.I. almost seemed to think it had to achieve bodily contact before engaging} .
All engagements were on Grass Plains , theoretically the perfect Pike terrain for maneuver and engagement .
In each 1v1 I made sure to shorten the width of my unit to match that of theirs to avoid overlapping them . Spear levies {me as the Spear Levy} would beat armoured pike every time this way with a frontal charge .
This behaviour happened consistently .

Next I tried Me with Armoured Sergeants as the Captain unit and four Spear levies as my battle line verses A.I. Noble Pikemen {the hardest in the game} as Captain and four Armoured Pike {should be well hard} as the A.I.s' battle line . No tactics , just each Levy unit marches straight at the Armoured pike opposite it and my Captain waits behind until the Noble pike engages the centre whence I match him .
The Pike should have slaughtered me , but I get Heroic victory instead with most of my forces alive .

Unless the Kingdoms .exe somehow borkes the A.Is' use of pikes in custom battle , then modding out the secondary weapon is still needed as right now , Pike are a huge liability to the A.I. {which only seems to move them in spearwall unless routing , so they aren't even fast enough to reposition to be a threat to flanking cavalry} .


I think the A.I. somehow either not realising its' pikes can hit the enemy as far away as where the point is or it keeps marching waiting for the charge to trigger {which of course cannot happen in spearwall formation} and only decides to change "tactic" when the unit has taken considerable losses and the "abandons" its' "charge" and fights {by which time it is too late to use pikes so it switches to secondary weapon} .
That's my best guess anyway . Either it doesn't realise its' pikes are long reach weapons , or it doesn't realise it cannot charge in spearwall formation {which would explain how it doesn't level the pikes before contact with the opponent when out of guard mode , especially when walking} .
Changing the Pikes to always lower pikes when an enemy unit is a certain distance from their frontal arc of attack would be a good start at a fix , though much more needs doing .










As an aside , the idea that swords should beat pikes is cobblers .
Forlorn Hope usually lost to pikes , badly .
That's why they were called Forlorn Hope ; their chances of breaking through the pikes was buckleys' !
They were made up of condemed criminals {amazing what even a slim chance of living will make a man do when the alternative is certain death} , lunatics , manic-depressives and desperate men {who needed money bad} . They received their last rights before battle in some occasions .

Also ...

Sword and buckler men were not invented to counter pikes either , they already existed in many forms for a long time previously {hell , technically Roman Centurions were sword and buckler men : a buckler is a shield held by a handle only , rather than being strapped to the forearm} and the type portrayed in game was already being used for other more sensible duties when some egghead had a bright idea of dropping prone and rolling under the pikes .
Trouble was , the trick only works once {and was used in a perfect situation when they pikes were running after them at full speed} . When other pike men heard about it , they were ready to skewer the next fools who tried it to the ground .
The "tactic" had one moment of success followed by an instructive number of moments of failure and retired to a pastoral existence as a footnote in history that most people seem to take out of context and all proportion to its' actual historical utility .
Be thankful RTW didn't have Trojan Horses as a Greek unit .

[Zatoichi]

So, did you try the above tests with Kingdoms? LTC only has the unit rebalance, while Kingdoms apparently has animation fixes which may make all the difference.

But I haven't played Kingdoms yet, it's hopefully being delivered today while I'm stuck here at work (curse you, gainful employment!) so I can't add much to this debate just yet (but that won't stop me, oh no!)

Another thing to try once Kingdoms is installed would be the Retrofit mod released the other day by CA staffer UnseenKnight over at TWC - this should add all unit tweaks from Kingdoms into the Grand Campaign, along with a bunch (but not all) of the nifty features.

[Mr Frost]

So, did you try the above tests with Kingdoms? LTC only has the unit rebalance, while Kingdoms apparently has animation fixes which may make all the difference.

But I haven't played Kingdoms yet, it's hopefully being delivered today while I'm stuck here at work (curse you, gainful employment!) so I can't add much to this debate just yet (but that won't stop me, oh no!)

Another thing to try once Kingdoms is installed would be the Retrofit mod released the other day by CA staffer UnseenKnight over at TWC - this should add all unit tweaks from Kingdoms into the Grand Campaign, along with a bunch (but not all) of the nifty features.

It had better fix it for the A.I.s' sake . I was however under the impression that it was in L.T.C. as a sort of pre release test .

I'll wait and see .

[napoleon526]

I just recently got Kingdoms, and I tried out some mercenary Burgher Pikemen against some Teutonic Halbrudder. They dropped their pikes and got slaughtered, just like before.

Is there a mod out yet that removes swords from pikemen?

[Seabourch]

Seems right, pikes will lose to swords. Would take the pikemen longer to manuver them , in a close combat situation whereas the swords would move much faster.

[Red Spot]

not so ...

just think about this;
take a giant-crane, if it turns it itself may only spin slowly, the tip of it arm may reach 100km/h, never seen a swordman do a 100km/h ..;)

in reality men would have to run in an arc around a pike unit, a causious pike unit would see you coming and already have its pikes turning with you, wich they can while turning slowly and your men running their behinds of ...

even if your men make it, they probably are much more tired than the pikes would simply get slaughered cause of the tiring weight of their armour.

now I'm no historian, but I dolike to think I know physics...:D


G

[Jambo]

I've been having more success with phalanx based troops in Kingdoms. Not only that but the AI has been causing me problems with them too, which had never been the case before.

In Kingdoms there is a new parameter in the "battle_config" file which is specific to phalanx troops:

		<!-- phalanx configuration -->
		<phalanx>
			<intercept-range>15</intercept-range>
		</phalanx>

I can only assume this is one of the reasons phalanx troops, i.e. pikes, work better in Kingdoms. I still feel the intercept range is too small and so I modded this to 30. :)

[Doug-Thompson]

Re: Pikes vs. swords.

Historically, pikes were not vulnerable to swords as long as the pikes kept good formation.

==========

Exactly what is "intercept range," anyway?

[Doug-Thompson]

I just recently got Kingdoms, and I tried out some mercenary Burgher Pikemen against some Teutonic Halbrudder. They dropped their pikes and got slaughtered, just like before.

Is there a mod out yet that removes swords from pikemen?

Was the shield wall special ability on? In "wall," some pikemen on the front ranks waved swords but the ones further back kept poking with their pikes for me.

[nameless]

Didn't Lusted or Caliban posted that while the Pikemen work better (They really do) they are not the ideal soldier against swordsmen?

I mean this is ridiculous

I just recently got Kingdoms, and I tried out some mercenary Burgher Pikemen against some Teutonic Halbrudder. They dropped their pikes and got slaughtered, just like before.

It would be silly to have such an elite unit get their asses handed to them by a early city-type unit (were they cavalry or dismounted?)

I've used burgher pikemen effectively in holding and pushing situations against general type units but elite units is another story. You would need more elite pikemen to do the job.

Was the shield wall special ability on? In "wall," some pikemen on the front ranks waved swords but the ones further back kept poking with their pikes for me.

Precisely, while some pikemen fought in swords, the others stayed and pushed with the pike.

In fact I found that by turning off guard mode and telling them to attack they'll defintely keep to the pikes and push the enemy back. The guard mode is best for receiving charges in which case you need to turn it off in melee.




Note the pikemen didn't beat them but held the enemy long enough for the rest of my men to smack them.

[Doug-Thompson]

Note the pikemen didn't beat them but held the enemy long enough for the rest of my men to smack them.

Which would fit what pikes are supposed to do unless they are Swiss pikes or their imitators, the Landsknect. Swiss pikes should be able to charge. They can in this game, but require some micro.

[Jack Lusted]

Didn't Lusted or Caliban posted that while the Pikemen work better (They really do) they are not the ideal soldier against swordsmen?

I did in my blog, Pikemen in Kingdoms are the ultimate anti-cav unit, but not as good v infantry.

[napoleon526]

Was the shield wall special ability on? In "wall," some pikemen on the front ranks waved swords but the ones further back kept poking with their pikes for me.

Yeah it was. The combat was in a siege though, so they might have been disordered walking through the breach.

It would be silly to have such an elite unit get their asses handed to them by a early city-type unit (were they cavalry or dismounted?)

It was mounted Halbrudders, I wouldn't send them up against any halfway decent swordsmen. I just thought i'd choke the breach with pikes and force the Teutons to charge straight at them.

In fact I found that by turning off guard mode and telling them to attack they'll defintely keep to the pikes and push the enemy back. The guard mode is best for receiving charges in which case you need to turn it off in melee.

I haven't tried this, i'll give it a shot. Thanks!

[napoleon526]

Also, I don't know why people are arguing that pikes are overpowered. Along with the arquebus, the pike ended the domination of the knight on the medieval battlefield, and ushered in massive social change too. When a hastily-trained pikeman or arqubusier (who were commoners) could kill a noble armored knight who had trained in warfare all his life, it was the beginning of the end for the knightly class.

[Doug-Thompson]

I did in my blog, Pikemen in Kingdoms are the ultimate anti-cav unit, but not as good v infantry.

Thanks for the feedback. I knew things were different, and I'm not a big pike player.

[Incongruous]

I find these issues with pike rather ridiculous.
Considering in RTW 1.5 the phalanx formation worked well.
What happened?

[Jambo]

In the hands of the human the phalanx units in RTW were totally overpowered. Kingdoms pike units are fine - effective yet beatable.

[Swiss Halberd Pike Landsknecht]

Also, I don't know why people are arguing that pikes are overpowered. Along with the arquebus, the pike ended the domination of the knight on the medieval battlefield, and ushered in massive social change too. When a hastily-trained pikeman or arqubusier (who were commoners) could kill a noble armored knight who had trained in warfare all his life, it was the beginning of the end for the knightly class.

also according to Wikipedia:

"The Second Lateran Council under Pope Innocent II in 1139 may have banned the use of crossbows against Christians."

Although: "The authenticity, interpretation and translation of this source is contested."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#_note-15

Depending on the battles, locations, enemies, I always change the type of units, formations, etc

but nearly always I have at least 2 Pike / Billsmen / Halberd, etc units, normally though about 25% - 40% of my units in a battle are of these types, in MTW Gold, I especially had / wanted Swiss mercenaries (pike & halberd)

And then nearly always I have at least 30% missile troops, but often this is around 40% to 60%, i.e Longbowmen, crossbowmen with pavises, arbalesters, hand gonners, (sometimes also javelin throwers depending on faction and situation). I always keep the pikemen in deep formations at the front, with the missile troops a few meters behind. The use of pikemen decreases though if I have longbowmen due to their stakes (which isn't present in MTW 1), although I don't think the stakes have any affect on enemy infantry.

I also love the ribault (organ gun), and often have to try to have that when defending.

[dopp]

Preliminary impressions of pikemen in Kingdoms and Retrofitted Grand Campaign using fairly elite pikemen (Tercios and Adventuros):

Appear to be considerably faster and keep formation better (halberdiers still seem a little slower than pikes). Guard mode is off by default. Still don't attack while in guard mode (intentional?).

Weapon swap ability seems improved. Rear ranks drawing swords still a problem, but 'push-of-pike' is possible by right-clicking enemy unit after receiving the charge. Pikemen will resume formation, sheath swords and push with pikes. Push-of-pike sometimes still triggers major bug where entire unit suddenly aboutfaces and presents their backs to the enemy.

Overall there seems to be an improvement. A simple stats buff will probably suffice to make them competitive for pike fans, rather than the previous all-or-nothing approach of modding out their swords. I personally added a 'shield bonus' of 5 to all halberd and pike units, based on the Teutonic Halbrudder infantry (which incidentally don't actually have shields even though the models do) and the Byzantine fire throwers (which actually have shields even though the models don't).

Recommended use: guard mode to receive charge, followed by attack command if too many pikemen are switching to swords (this will reform the line). Use only 4-5 ranks for maximum frontage. Firearms can help break up infantry charges and prevent too many from getting under the pikes. Use the increased speed to set up 'meatgrinders' by catching enemies between two pike blocks.

[Bob the Insane]

So while the specifics may have changed overall it is pretty much the same. Left to themselves pikes get eaten up, but with a little micromanagement you can get them the reform and really use their pikes (in infantry melee)...