Indo-Greek Hoplite

**Son of Perun** · 08-31-2007, 22:09

I was just curious about the background of this unit. I like it very much but the iphilkratic equipment seems a bit weird. I think they should fight in classical or successor style. But i do not know much about I.-G. warfare.

**Tellos Athenaios** · 08-31-2007, 22:33

Iphikrates is successor style... So I don't see what you're getting at?

**Megas Pyrrhos** · 08-31-2007, 23:26

I think he meant macedonian-style pike warfare...which would mean, I suppose, more training required by recruits. The "classical" type would almost make more sense to me, but I'm no historian.

**paullus** · 09-01-2007, 04:05

They're supposed to be a more mobile version of the hoplite. The problem here and with Iphikratous hoplitai is that they're stuck in a ponderous pike phalanx for right now. That'll change.

**Son of Perun** · 09-01-2007, 08:35

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Iphikrates is successor style... So I don't see what you're getting at?

I have never heard of Iphilcratic hoplites in armies of Ptolemaios, Seleucos, Antigonos, etc. Btw Iphilcrates lived before successor wars, so it is NOT a successor style.

Originally Posted by paullus

That'll change.

How???

**NeoSpartan** · 09-01-2007, 09:08

Iphikrates was the one who came up with the idea of equiping hoplites with longer spears and lighter peltat type shields. Oh, and he also issued them boots.
In Greece it wasn't all that popular and the Spartans rejected the idea completely (I think that is why u can't train them in Sparta). However, Phillip of Macedonia took the idea and expanded it.

**Thaatu** · 09-01-2007, 11:46

Originally Posted by Son of Perun

I have never heard of Iphilcratic hoplites in armies of Ptolemaios, Seleucos, Antigonos, etc. Btw Iphilcrates lived before successor wars, so it is NOT a successor style.

I believe he meant in game.

**Tellos Athenaios** · 09-01-2007, 21:40

I'll clarify: the idea of going for the lighter type equipment (Thuros, lineothorax, etc.) + longer spears makes for Successor style in my mind. Granted it's an anochronism; Iphikrates who is credited with this new style, was around way before the Successors were - but the overall unit remindes one of the Pezhetairoi mixed with a bit of Thureophoroi.

**Son of Perun** · 09-01-2007, 22:30

I can not agree. Successor warfare is complex, it is not just "longer spears, lighter armor".It was created by Philip II, who combined ideas of Iphilcrates, Epaminondas and his own. Iphilcratic reform was only an inspiration, it never became real part of Successor style.

**keravnos** · 09-01-2007, 10:57

Originally Posted by Son of Perun

I was just curious about the background of this unit. I like it very much but the iphilkratic equipment seems a bit weird. I think they should fight in classical or successor style. But i do not know much about I.-G. warfare.

They are not an iphicratic phallanx. They are classic overhand armed phallanx that is equipped a bit differently (evolved boetian helmet rather than illyrian or other).

Now, on the helmet part. I have looked at thousands of IG coins and on about 99.9 of those, a helmet like the one you see on IG hoplite in my sig exists (a great many variations of the same theme do exist -however all those helmets are beotians....)

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=227&Lot=660

Just to show some variations. Those guys depicted were kings, true, but a boetian helmet isn't that hard to make (provided you have the bronze for it) and our guys are nobles so they probably could afford the lump of bronze and a smith to make a helmet out of that.

Now, on to pictorial evidence...

From Gandhara, the real frieze (this is a reconstruction) of Relief showing a male Buddhist devotee in chiton and himation (top), and Hellenistic soldiers wearing the chlamys (bottom). Butkara, National Museum of Oriental Art.

and for a bigger pic...(if so desired)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...karaRelief.jpg

Check the shield. It is a big round aspis shield exactly like our hoplite has ingame, shown in profile in what is saved of the frieze.

There have been frieze depictions of them (as the above from Gandhara) that show them basically as you see them ingame (although they are standing guard in the Gandharan depictions). Also, some hero stones (Dead ksatriya or warrior guild's gravemarks depicting life and glorious death) from mid/Southern Indian coast portray Spearmen carrying big round aspis shields (like the ones we speak of) and attack each other in overhand stance.

Now, the most exciting part of this carved depiction is that there are two lines of spearmen facing each other. This is the depiction of a classic hoplite phallanx, which Phillip vowed to change because of that very fact...That basically two lines in the classic phallanx fought whereas the others pushed them on. (So he made the pike phallanx you all know and love, in which 5 lines fought-later even more)

And I guess you guys don't believe me... Ok.

Feel free to download this and check the last 2 lines. Those guys weren't IG, but IG influenced Indians, or "Indian hoplites-style inf" if you will.

I took the liberty of doing it myself...

Does their way of fighting ring a bell?

I understand that any spearman would fight somewhat like this but 2 things are at work here. 1. is the size and make of the shield (Pre IG Indian shields would be more of a bell like construct, or if round much smaler in size), 2. The clear phallanx formation of soldiers coveing each other holding spear in overhand position on TWO lines as depicted in the frieze. Not just one spear-and-shield line.

Now back to native Indian warfare... prior to IndoGreeks arriving on scene.
Indian warfare was mounted mostly. Infantry was either levy spearmen trying hard NOT to get stomped by elephants or great numbers of bamboo longbowmen showering arrows at their enemies. Adding to that was a very small cadre of fighting guilds (according to Kautiliyas' Arthashastra) whose warriors were very proffesional in the conduct of war, and who were on "assault" roles, equipped with the best swords that could be made (Indian sword making at that time was the best in the world, some of their Iron construction still survives). Kautiliya writes that only they were good enough to be trusted as much as the King's own household (I guess bodyguard mounted and dismounted) troops.

The mounted warriors were all Ksatriyas (warrior caste). A small percentage of those still fought on charriots.

I think IG noble hoplites fit a role as they were quite possibly the only part of the infantry (along with those professional guilds) that actually fought. Those guilds were basically swordmen, so what you see in that pic above is either them, or Indians who fought like them. Indians fighting like them would indicate their existence and even more their influence on how people fought in the subcontinent at that time.

A classic phallanx in India would make sense, as pike phallanx would be immovable and elephant/arrow bait. Not to mention that all the other lighter troops (Indohellenikoi peltastai etc) would have to be protected by the light-variety and the more heavy ksatriya horsemen. A classic phallanx could both reform and avoid elephants and go up against cavalry and native Indian infantry, while at the same time be very protected against the massive volleys of Indian longbowmen. They wouldn't be speed runners true, but they quite possibly could outrun the pike phallanx who had to carry that 6meter pike along with them.

For those reaching down here, and have read the whole thing, I realise that there is a lot of stuff here. But a man has to stand up for his sig, especially one that is so craftfully made by Caratacos himself!