Kingdoms uses Securom v7 protection

[Tafferboy]

Hi, fellow fans

I wish someone had told me this bit of information before I bought and installed Kingdoms, so this may be useful to people like myself who are averse to having unremovable third-party software on their systems. It's the same issue that has got gaming communities like NWN2 and now Bioshock riled up, and it's easy to see why.

Whether Securom can be trusted and is totally harmless is open to debate, but I totally reject having anything installed with my game without my consent and a clear way of removal. Hopefully you feel the same way, and Sega can be persuaded to release a patch for its removal (however unlikely). My post in the official .com technical forum:

Nobody answers his question? Well I will. Yes, unlike the original M2TW, Kingdoms uses the latest version of Securom - v7. If that sounds familiar, yes it's the same version used by Bioshock that has been associated with a rootkit. I know this because after installing Kingdoms (European release) yesterday, I find a registry entry "!CAUTION! NEVER DELETE OR CHANGE ANY KEY" under Securom that I can't remove. As reported in Bioshock, this entry shows up in RootkitRevealer, and the timestamp points to Kingdoms as the culprit. Ironically, I chose to buy Kingdoms over Bioshock because I didn't want this kind of unremovable junk on my system and now I still got it anyway. I am very disappointed and hope others know this is the copy protection they are getting with the game.

[Graphic]

I can't find a registry entry like that on my machine. I honestly wouldn't care if I did.

[Darkarbiter]

Anyone who can be bothered torrenting kingdoms can be bothered finding a way around securerom (that would include me... it ain't out here yet). When I buy a game and it has securerom on it, it just pisses me off though. Hopefully it'll just be a fad.

[The Teacher]

does it have an impact on the puter? im going to buy it in the shop , yes a real shop, and install the mutha .. will i affect me etc?

[TB666]

Confirmed or not ??
And is the new Securom anything like Starforce ??
Does it do any damage on your computer like Starforce or is it just sitting there ?

[Lusted]

It's the same as in BioShock and i've had no problems with secuROM.

[sapi]

The so called Bioshock rootkit was apparently simply a result of the mis-interpretation of the RootkitRevealer output.

There's an interesting (and legal) workaround for the PE incompatibility on the sysinternals forums here, which may be of use if that was your problem.

[Daveybaby]

I've already decided not to buy bioshock due to this 'limited number of installs' crap theyve decided to punish their paying customers with. Its gotten to the point where you get worse service for deciding to pay for the game. I mean... jesus, its almost as if they want people to go and find a warez copy. What the hell is wrong with these people?

However, from everything i've read, the securom protection itself does not do anything root-kit-y (despite being owned by Sony, the company thats turned hating and mistrusting its customers into an art form). The problem is with its over-zealousness in locking you out of playing the game youve paid for based on what other processes you have running (including several antivirus apps).

My paid for copy of kingdoms was delivered yesterday and is sitting next to my PC waiting to be installed. I'm not entirely sure i want to now, if its going to screw up due to my AV software (apparently AVG is one of the processes it doesnt like). And of course, if the game refuses to run, i wont be able to return it, because the terms and conditions of sale state 'Please ensure that the game will run on your computer before ordering as we cannot be responsible for incompatibilities with your system'

Dear publishers: why not try rewarding good behaviour, and punishing bad behaviour for a change, instead of the other way round.

[Lusted]

I've already decided not to buy bioshock due to this 'limited number of installs' crap theyve decided to punish their paying customers with.

That just basically means you can only install it on 5 PCs(was originally 2), everyimte you uninstall you get an install ticket back.

[MStumm]

Dear publishers: why not try rewarding good behaviour, and punishing bad behaviour for a change, instead of the other way round.

It's all to have more control over the games on your PC and eventually squeeze more money from you. I bet in 5-7 years you'll be paying 1 cent per turn in the next TW game.

[Ramses II CP]

Argh, I use AVG as well. I won't be buying Kingdoms for awhile just so people can discover issues like this. I'm sorry for your trouble, but I'm so glad there are people will to pay to beta test for me, well, except for the fact that if there weren't such people game makers might have release non-beta games.

[Zenicetus]

It's the same as in BioShock and i've had no problems with secuROM.

Does "no problems" include being satisfied with a situation where you can't remove the registry key after the game is uninstalled? Just curious. And please realize that not everyone will be happy with that.

The so called Bioshock rootkit was apparently simply a result of the mis-interpretation of the RootkitRevealer output.

That's true, however my understanding is that the SecureRom registry key is not removed when the game is uninstalled. Is that the case, and if so, will either CA or SecureRom supply a utility to do that?

[Lusted]

Does "no problems" include being satisfied with a situation where you can't remove the registry key after the game is uninstalled? Just curious. And please realize that not everyone will be happy with that.

Yes, as i generally do not go around deleting registry keys of things i uninstall. I've had no problems with secuROM

[Zenicetus]

Nobody ever has to "go around deleting registry keys" for well-behaved Windows programs, because they're supposed to do that as part of the normal uninstall process.

In addition, the fact that the SecureRom files, unlike normal keys, are hidden in ways similar to rootkits (while not being an actual rootkit) tends to trigger anti-virus programs. All in all, not a wonderful move by CA, in my opinion.

[Lusted]

Nobody ever has to "go around deleting registry keys" for well-behaved Windows programs, because they're supposed to do that as part of the normal uninstall process.

But most programs do not remove registry keys when they uninstall, that's how quite a few remember some of your settings.

[hirins]

excuse me for maybe sounding dumb.. i am just an end user and not much in all that software thing.. people shall i install kingdoms or shall i not? (i am using norton as anti virus)

[alpaca]

On a slightly different angle: I wonder why game developers/publishers actually believe that more people will buy a game if they use a copy protection.
The point in case is that all people I know who would buy a game buy it because it's a good game not because they can't illegally download it.

Besides, most games are cracked within a few weeks which means that it's pretty much moot to copy-protect your games because you just punish your honest customers who can't use certain programs if they want to play your game. For example, I've already seen a crack for Kingdoms around which means that people can pirate it if they want to, copy protection or not.

All in all I believe that at least for games like TW (games that are primarily played by kids who can't afford a lot of them or in general see downloading as cool could be another issue), the money spent on a copy protection could be better invested in paying another bug-tester

[Ramses II CP]

Personally I don't begrudge a company the right to protect their intellectual property, but I will not support protection that places an extraordinairy or unusual burden on the purchaser. I would advise anyone to wait for more information before buying or installing the game.

[barvaz]

Besides, most games are cracked within a few weeks...

Few weeks? HA...more like few hours. It is basically a race between the various warez groups to get the crack out first. Usually the crack is out before the games hit the shelves in some countries.

I am using game cracks and I am not ashamed of it. I buy my games because I think the makers of good games should be rewarded and because I really like to collect the boxes, manuals, maps, art etc of the games I love. But I never use the original CD/DVD's - they tend to scratch and my little kids have long history of ruining my discs. Replacing a ruined original CD/DVD can be such a pain and not even possible at times. Not to mention the crap some of these copy protection software make you go through. Hey, "Daemon Tools" has dozens of legitimate uses, who are they to tell me what to run or not on my computer?

Anyway, there is a solution/workaround/hack/crack to everything this badware throws at you. So I use whatever in my disposal. There is not much else you can do - it is not like I am not going to play a game I am waiting for a long time because of stupid copy protection.

It usually isn't even the developers fault - don't blame CA for it, blame Sega. It is the publishers and their armies of suits and lawyers. People who don't care about the games but see them as a merchandise they should maximize their profits from and they are led to believe copy protection is a good thing for revenue. And in many ways, from their own perspective, it makes sense.

So I am still buying the games, but I am also supporting those who actively fight copy protection - be it by just giving my sympathy or a small donation here and there.

- barvaz

[John_Longarrow]

Before I pick it up, is there any problem with installing Kingdoms on a computer that is NOT connected to the net?

[Tafferboy]

Before I pick it up, is there any problem with installing Kingdoms on a computer that is NOT connected to the net?

No, it doesn't require an online activation to install. I however humbly suggest that anybody concerned with intrusive copyright protection put off buying the game or return it if bought. Sega, like all publishers, care foremost about profit and the only way they can be convinced to release a patch removing the Securom is if consumers decide not to fill their pockets until this is done. The copy protection on future releases can only get worse if a clear message is not
sent that it is not tolerated by the majority.

Securom probably is not harmful, but to me, there's something inherently wrong and fishy in something that installs without notice, cloaks itself, does not uninstall with the game, and is impossible to remove without a painful process. Can I be absolutely sure my private information is not sent to the Securom servers? What if hackers found a way to exploit it (doubly dangerous since it can't be easily removed)? People have already reported that it conflicts with other applications, emulation software programs and even other games obtained legitimately. Ultimately, it doesn't sit well with me that as the owner of my system, I have lost the ability to customise it and remove something on it if I so wish. It's also insulting that I paid for a game and get a headache, while a pirate enjoys it free of cost and Securom junk. Kingdoms is the first game I have ever bought soon after release and I totally regret that decision. At this point, I am more concerned with getting rid of the Securom than enjoying Kingdoms.

[Halaster]

I went over to my friends house where he had installed the game and we decided to try the Hotseat game. The game locked up all the time and is unplayable on all 4 scenarios. Piece of crap right now out of the box. Will have to try disabling the firewall and AVG.

[Swiss Halberd Pike Landsknecht]

hmm not sure what to do now

I downloaded the 1.2 Patch for M2TW
as I'm planning on buying Medieval 2 in the next few days (bought a few months Medieval Total War Gold).

At first def wanted to also get Kingdoms expansion, as there's some parts I'd really like to have (and as result don't want to miss out), but then again I am worried now after I read about this securom protection system (1st time I've heard about it)

strange how they put it for Kingdoms but not the main game

[Bootsiuv]

I went over to my friends house where he had installed the game and we decided to try the Hotseat game. The game locked up all the time and is unplayable on all 4 scenarios. Piece of crap right now out of the box. Will have to try disabling the firewall and AVG.

That's not surprising in the least. I now am well aware of the fact that you have to wait 1 year minimum after a TW game is released before it will have most of the major bugs worked out, and the better-than-vanilla FCM's will come out.

Granted, the game is pretty complex for a video game, and still revolutionary in what it does, so I learn to deal with it. I'm still enjoying RTW 1.6.

[Darkarbiter]

I've already decided not to buy bioshock due to this 'limited number of installs' crap theyve decided to punish their paying customers with. Its gotten to the point where you get worse service for deciding to pay for the game. I mean... jesus, its almost as if they want people to go and find a warez copy. What the hell is wrong with these people?

It's simple. The only type of copy protection that works is the need to insert cd in drive system (the basic one). Everything can be cracked. Things more then basic is just annoying.

It's like the cliche' reason of why the guy buys his DVDs burnt. It's not because they are cheaper... it's because they are better quality despite what "pirating isss terrorism" might claim. It gets rid of the annoying "plz no pirate" movies which you can't skip otherwise (how ironic)... the annoying animated menus in some cases and other corperate advertising.

Despite the fact that these adds claim that pirated copies in all cases are inferior in this case they are actually superior to the original product because you don't have to sit through so much stuff just to watch the movie.

Titan quest removed Securom from their loader about a year ago with patch 1.20 and it hasn't exactly negatively affected sales.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Thanks Tafferboy, now we know why the overworked space shuttle scientists couldn't include a patch to fix up the bugs in M2TW. I was almost convinced on buying Kingdoms lol...

Maybe with the next boxed version they can include an electronic monitoring & activation bracelet!

[sapi]

I'm afraid that this topic is running very close to the line on our piracy rules here at the .org; considering the purpose of this topic was purely informative, I think it's best to slap a lock on it now, before someone posts something that we'll both regret

Personally, I doubt SecuRom's a big issue, anyway - it certainly won't effect my decision to buy the game or not...