Americas Campaign: Apache

[Mad Mac]

I think only Scouts and/or Medicine men meet the infantry requirement for Ondes Men. Just a guess, but it would explain why they're so hard to unlock.

[Rumpole]

I got the Onde's men, though it took a long time!

The Tarascans get an extra 12000 florins per turn, which lets them build unlimited troops. They also decare war when Amiable. I don't see how to beat them.

[acemutha]

What do you think about modifying the campaign script to infantry > 10 and settlement > 1 so we can see if only the scouts and medicine men count for that.

[Slaists]

On turn 1, declare a war path to the eastern-most rebel province in the war-past list. Send a full stack that way and hire mercs as you go. Mercs will have 0 upkeep. Use mercs to take all rebel settlements along the warpath. Use one unit of the original stack to garrison the newly occupied settlement and move on. I did not use the original apache warriors in any of the 1st war-path fights, just used them sparingly to garrison the newly conquered villages.

Note, in order for desertions not to kick in you will have to take each settlement on the first turn of arriving (no waiting). Use mercs to do the brunt of work and rehire as needed. By the time you reach the eastern-most rebel settlement you should be able to conquer all of the rebel settlements in modern day US South (except Florida).

Here's a caveat, which seems different from the Crusades: a stack of war-path mercs led by a captain does not seem to desert as long as it stays close to the other stack lead by the original war-path leader (general). This allowed me to tag along two war-path stacks using just one general.
--
playing a bit more with Apache's I've come to a conclusion that the European AI has a serious morale issues, facing native American troops consisting mostly of missile types. even when defending, the cocky AI (French) would attack (that's another problem...), allowing me to take the most advantageous position (on a hill-top) and wait. once hit with a barrage of missiles (no gunpowder needed), a full stack of European AI would rout even before reaching my lines. i guess, the europeans get a morale hit double whammy here: missile barage + being outnumbered about 2:1 (full stack versus full stack). feels almost like cheating...

[Mithradates VI]

I got the Onde's men, though it took a long time!

The Tarascans get an extra 12000 florins per turn, which lets them build unlimited troops. They also decare war when Amiable. I don't see how to beat them.

My theory on why this is the case is to sort of imitate the fact that the Tarascans were the only culture in Mesoamerica at this point to actually smelt bronze, and use it as weapons. Since, you know, CA is too silly to actually try to create units for the Tarascans that are different from the Aztecs.

I have a friend who has an apache game going, and he says the key to success is to attack EVERYTHING and everyone, As fast as possible. He's also said that after you hammer away at the french to get weapons, he has achieved an alliance with them...and they're working in tandem against the Tarascans.

Also, he's said that Apache Braves are the key unit for victory. I'll be trying it out later, so I'll be sure to let you all know.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Don't Koitsenko have same melee stats as guachichil warriors? So one can melee test Guachichil against Onde's men and decide which is better. Guachichil will win of course every time and to that result add the amount of kills Koitsenko will rack up with their bows before the lines meet and subtract the dread Onde's men cause . Verdict: Onde's men good against cavalry but I'd rather have Koitsenko's in a scrap any day.
Oh and I ran test campaign with just apache braves recruited and got hunter's wigwam and then hunter's longhouse so they do count towards the missile units recruitment total. At same time as i got koikotsenko (hunter's longhouse) i got raiders wigwam even without making a single melee unit. So i retested and made only rabbit boys and same result: when i got to hunters longhouse i got raider's wigwam with it without making a single melee unit. Tried one just recruiting medicine men and got nothing not a sausage, zip.

[Bernhard of Clairvaux]

I was surprised to find how easy an Apache campaign has been so far. I took captured all nearby rebel settlements and advanced east until I met the french in close to Lousiana. I brought four stacks (no onde or koitchenkos). I won all battles against the French without much trouble. I followed the advice to outnumber but before the reinforcement arrived I always found that I had won. Now I have gun infantry and cavalry and the french live on only because I have not finished them.

Economy is not a problem ever. Cheap upkeep means you can mass recruit all the time.

Maybe it will get tougher but with gunner I doubt it. Fun but very easy. The French troops are too few to be able to win. Especially braves can be very useful for breaking morale of superior troops in a critical moment.

Apache remind me of Russia in the GC. Much missile and much room to expand. The favour of deciding when to do battle is just too favourable to make you fail.

Playing on VH/VH

[DrZoidberg]

How do I get my reinforcements to actually reinforce? Whenever I attack with several Apache armies my reinforcements just stand there from where ever the entered the map and don't budge, until my head force is wiped out. I put them in aggressive mode. Doesn't seem to do the trick. How does it work?

[Cheetah]

How do I get my reinforcements to actually reinforce? Whenever I attack with several Apache armies my reinforcements just stand there from where ever the entered the map and don't budge, until my head force is wiped out. I put them in aggressive mode. Doesn't seem to do the trick. How does it work?

Are you sure you have checked the proper boxes before the battle? There is a list showing generals and armies and you have to allow the AI to controll these armies and use them as reinforcement (i.e. check both boxes). IF you did so then the general's unit card will appear in the upper right corner of the screen during battle. Just select the unit card (which selects the whole army) and then left click on the spot you want them. Also you can select the stance. Probably you just forgot to order them to move with left click.

[kitbogha]

Also, he's said that Apache Braves are the key unit for victory. I'll be trying it out later, so I'll be sure to let you all know.

Apache Braves? I have found them to be pretty poor, especially as the game progresses, I have been using them primarily as cheap garrison troops-on the other hand Mounted Thunder Braves are the Daddy!!!

[fluffsuit]

a good stack to use is all mounted thunder braves. divide it into 2 parts. one part leads the enemy around while the other attacks teh rear and flanks. once you're low on ammo just have a few hit the rear of isolated units until you either win or atleast really decimate the stack. in this way you should be either able to totally destroy the army or atleast destroy more than half and leave the rest depleted. then with the second stack of braves, koitsenkos and thunder braves that you should have nearby, hit them on the same turn and put a row of brave, then a row of koitsenkos which can hold their own pretty well in melee, too. then place about 4 or so thunderbraves either behind them higher up if there's a hill or to one side so they have a clear line of fire. this formation works great on half stacks and even 2/3 stacks. it can still dish out alot of damage on a full stack unless there's a good general.

[fluffsuit]

forgot to add that i eliminated the taxcalans who annoyed the crap out of me with their fifty million stacks and infinite money, by sending in about 10 assassins and over about 20 turns killed all their leaders and generals. if you do this with a smaller faction before they get so big its alot easier, but somehow feels like cheating. it is a good option to get rid of an annoying opponent if you're tied up with another war elsewhere.

[kitbogha]

[QUOTE=fluffsuit]a good stack to use is all mounted thunder braves. divide it into 2 parts. one part leads the enemy around while the other attacks teh rear and flanks.

Yes, I have found that a good plan too. Also, if you place your infantry right back and up on high ground you can send mounted thunder braves and mounted apaches to harrass the enemies as they advance (remembering to switch the skirmish mode on for thunder braves!-the ammount of times I've been caught out by that one.... ).
By the time they get to your lines you will have seriously messed with their morale and a well timed surprise attack from some scouts (who can conceal themselves virtually anywhere) causes a very pleasing domino effect of routing enemies who you can then mop up with ease using your cavalry who will have by then run out of missiles and can just run them down as they they try to escape.

[Sheogorath]

Wouldnt you know it, the Chichimecs decided that it'd be a good time to betray our alliance and attack me. Meanwhile the French AI suddenly got really good and now I've got ten stacks of French moving rapidly westwards. Since I've got no more trade agreements I cant afford to keep unit production at the point where I can sustain armies against the Aztecs, who apparently found a new reserve of troops. somewhere.
Well, this game's a bust.
Next time I'm gonna get those Chichimec bastards while theyre helpless.

[acemutha]

I think only Scouts and/or Medicine men meet the infantry requirement for Ondes Men. Just a guess, but it would explain why they're so hard to unlock.

You are right !


Ok I've done some testing changing the campaign script to:

; indian_raiders_2 Recruit 50 infantry units & Win 10 battles
monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType apachean
and I_CompareCounter apachean_infantry_recruited > 20
and I_CompareCounter apachean_settlements_captured > 1

add_events
event counter indian_raiders_2
date 0
end_add_events

if I_LocalFaction apachean
historic_event apachean_raiders_2 factions { apachean, }
end_if

terminate_monitor
end_monitor

So basically u need to conquer 1 settlement and train at least 21 infantry units.
So i trained only medicine and scouts and that did the trick.
Note that if your units betray you they don't count to the sum.

[diotavelli]

First thing to realise about playing as Apaches is that you don't have to get hung up on spamming units in order to get upgrades; not to the extent of risking bankruptcy, anyway.

To explain: the units you start with are good enough to do a job for you. The units you get following upgrades are better but not to the extent that the game gets radically easier or your tactics are going to change dramatically (at least until horses and guns but these are dependent on the arrival of the French, not on your appetite for unit-spawing). That being the case, you gain very little by getting the upgrades early, so what's the point in bankrupting yourself to do so?

Your starting troops are sufficient for two stacks. One goes east on a warpath and the other cleans up down the Pacific coast. Each time you take a camp, recruit a dog soldier unit as garrison and then move on (you can normally move whilst the recruitment is ticking over if you keep taxation at normal). Keep your starting troops in the stack and you should be strong enough to take all rebel camps without resorting to mercenaries and you'll get some highly experienced warriors too. Only recruit extras units as you can afford them.

By the time you've taken all rebel camps, you'll have two highly experienced stacks and a really healthy treasury. Round about now, you'll be face-to-face with the mesoamericans and the French will arrive. Hold off the mesos and whip the French with your experienced eastern stack, plus additional troops recruited as necessary. Let the French attack you in battle and you'll take them easy enough. Soon enough, you'll gain the initial horse and gun upgrades.

Once the French are whooped, you'll have guns, horses and a full treasury. Now is the time to show your soft, southern neighbours what true Apache grit is about. Concentrate your remaining weaker troops into stacks and soften up anyone nearby; then hit them with improved troops. Keep aside one or two decent stacks to send on the Warpath against the Spanish. These can create havoc en route and should do enough to earn you the further gun and horse upgrades.

Preserve troops at all times and don't over stretch yourself: if your treasury gets bare and you have a few casualty-heavy results, you're defenceless - and remember, this never happens to your opponents as they get the cash bonuses each turn. If you're sensible, you can grow at a reasonable rate and do so in a fashion that puts you ahead of the game technologically.

Just because you can get upgrades, it doesn't mean you have to. In fact, fighting and winning with lower grade troops is more of a challenge and potentially more satisfying - plus, when you get upgrades, you feel like you've earned them, not just adopted an easy work-around.

Not a strategy to everyone's taste but it worked for me.

[doombringer]

small note on the french:
because they are in horde mode, i found it possible to assasinate them into submission because of the low numbers and local concentration of family members

[Cadwallon]

Battles are bloody affairs - particularly when you face the Mesoamericans. Hugh armies, high attack values combined with low armour values make for high casualties. I found the Chichimecs, with their huge stacks of heavy infantry very hard initially. You usually hadn't done enough damage with your missile troops before they get to your line.

Until you get Kotisenkos (sp?) and Onde's men, the priests are probably your best bet. Don't rely on your general's body guard - they are lightly armoured and vulnerable - only commit them in rear charges - not attrition as they will lose against mesoamericans or Europeans who are tougher with higher attack values. Lost track of the number of general's I've lost.

Money is not an issue. As one of the other posters said - your armies have a low maintenance cost - so go large! Elite armies are hard to build, so just build lots. I made one of the Mesoamericans my vassals (after taking two of their cities, then threatening them and offering them 15000). Next turn I'm in a war with the Aztecs and I have 500 000 florins in the kitty!

Until you get Onde's Men you really don't have a line of battle infantryman that can go toe to toe with jaguar, eagle or other heavy infantry. Even with Onde's men, I'm finding it hard fighting the hordes of Aztecs that I'm now facing. I'm losing more than I'm winning - if it weren't for the continual streams of reinforcements coming from the north I'd be cactus and my frontier of former Chichimec territory would have long been swallowed up.

Try using your mounted thunder braves to snipe and harry flanks. Thunder braves are great at shooting, but crap in combat - they won't last. Target your opponent's general, as you can guarantee he'll be doing the same (I've watched as I moved my general down the line - the opposing Aztecs followed him from the left to the right flank!). One tactic which is long but worthwhile is having only mounted troops - stay ahead of him, snipe his flanks and rear and don't let him get into combat until a large proportion of his army is gone or broken.

Remember that thunder braves have long range and cause fear against your native opponents. The Europeans seem to have been limited and/or stamped out by their more numerous native american opponents. The aztecs, apachean and mayans are rampant. Now if I can only get the Mayans to declare war against the Aztecs...

[icek]

it work in 1.4 on m/m and dont know if it a bug or feature but it seems that rebels in settlements dont have fire at will turned on and there are no more arrows chasing at you, so basically to capture settlements you need large portion of archers doing one volley, escape and replay. It takes long than usual full attack but this way you can lose less than 10 men fighting againts settlements with 6 archer units(dogs).

[Droce]

Maybe is was just me, but playing h/vh was incredibly simple for one reason: Braves are insane morale killers. I get one general, 6 dog soldiers (or the K guys when I got them) 12 braves, and some medicine men for the chant and destroyed. As the enemy comes towards your lines (and every AI faction did that for me, even when I attacked) your dog soldiers will cause horrible damage, then when they get within range of the braves, a few spears sends them running. Even if they didn't run, the braves are powerful enough to survive in melee (and easily destroy the faction beneath you). The french died en masse because they simply charged, and the Spanish don't have enough numbers to cause you a problem.

Another thing I did was ally Aztecs, they would never backstab because everyone was against them, so you could often stick an army beside theres and have them kill the enemy for you.

Another thing, warpath is vastly overrated (and my elder died right at the start, so I could only use one), because every town you conquer can build your staple troops in a few turns. Not to mention that every city can support it's own full stack.

My two cents. Hello everyone, also.