When did Creative Assembly become a symbol of evil?

[Graphic]

[I looked around and wasn't entirely sure where something like this belonged, so I plopped it here.]

I'm kind of flabbergasted at some of the comments about them in the Securom thread and many other threads since Medieval 2 came out. I think many people are far too harsh on the developers. It's not as if they sit in their offices drinking martinis and smoking cigars, cackling with their evil laughs as they watch everyone suffer weak AI and bugs.

Hardly anyone believes they're doing it on purpose but I dare to say that it's not that they don't care either. I'm sure they do care about the community and the quality of their product. These guys started out as fringe developers who made a small but sweet game in 1999 with what I would imagine was a very small team. Since then they've been bought and sold by very large global publishing companies, undoubtedly have had to swell their ranks with green personnel, and the Total War series has reached a level of popularity I'm sure they never expected. I'm sure they try their absolute best.

Unless I'm mistaken, as their owners,
SEGA decides on whether or not to put Securom on titles
SEGA decides to greenlight patches or not
SEGA decides when the development process has ended and it's time to rush the game.

I have nothing but respect for Creative Assembly as they make awesome, deep and incredibly addictive games that I can play for years and years, and I do. Most of the stuff that people bash them for is out of their control. They deserve a measure of criticism like everyone else, sure, but not as harsh as they get IMO.

[Guru]

How much did they pay for posting this thread? Just joking... You got a point.

[icek]

Since I remember correctly they started run after another tw game from a very symbolic and critical patch 2.1 for viking invasion for witch community needed to wait whole 3 months. In mean time they anounced rtw and they explained this long wait by bein too busy working on rome.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

You can't have an official site where everyone claps each other on the back and says how great things are. CA read this and we have right as consumers to make them aware of how we feel about the patches that never really fix our games and the copy protection we can never really uninstall .

[alpaca]

Yeah, in fact I think I always wrote SEGA on the SecuROM thread, and not CA as I am very well aware of it.

However, CA definitely does have a say in it in my opinion, I don't believe SEGA just dictates them "use SecuROM or leave".

Anyways, I'm the last to unfairly criticize people and try to keep it constructive at all times (although I don't always manage to, but I'm only human). I always held the opinion that we have to tell the devs (and publishers) what we do and don't like or otherwise they'll just take it for granted that we're content with what they're doing and in that case they won't change anything
This sometimes includes shouting a bit because otherwise it can very well happen people don't listen to you.

Good idea for a thread nonetheless, it always helps to encourage your devs a bit. Most of the time they're doing a decent job

[Graphic]

@ Gaius Terentius Varro:

I never said you didn't have that right...? Can you read past the first couple sentences.

Anyway yeah, that's the standard operating procedure for most games. Patch is released, you give feedback to the devs on their site. I'm speaking on what appears to be an outright vendetta some people have taken out against CA which really isn't warranted, since most of it is out of their hands, they try, and I'm pretty sure they don't hate the consumer and want to please their fans with a nice game.

This all reminds me of the Battlefield 2 community who basically believe DICE (the devs of that series) are devil worshiping pedophiles who gain sexual pleasure from releasing bad patches, when really it's partly their own fault because every idea is presented as a DICE-bashing rant which isn't getting anyone anywhere.

However, CA definitely does have a say in it in my opinion, I don't believe SEGA just dictates them "use SecuROM or leave".

I don't think they do have a say in that in any meaningful way. Sega owns them and publishes/distributes their games. CA's job is to make the game. The packaging, the disc manufacture (Securom), etc. is not their field. It would be comparable to a movie director demanding that his studio release the DVD without copy protection or that it can never be edited to air on TV. He really has no say in that decision.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Oh that wasn't personal at all i was addressing the topic which is a good one. However If you believe that the comunity is REALLY upset about this securom issue then you haven't seen us cheesed yet

[barvaz]

However, CA definitely does have a say in it in my opinion, I don't believe SEGA just dictates them "use SecuROM or leave".

Well, it depends or their specific contracts and agreements but it is more than likely that like many other publishers, SEGA controls the distribution, installation, packaging, manual , EULA and copy protection, among other things.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the actual software packaging, wrapping the game code with the installation software and integrating the 3rd party software like SecuROM is done by SEGA developers and not CA's themselves.

In any case, the final word is probably SEGA's and I don't imagine many game developers dropping their publisher for issues that not many consider fundamental (unlike distputes about money, artistic freedom or game design, for example) since copy protection at some level is considered de facto standard in the industry.


- barvaz

[Graphic]

Oh that wasn't personal at all i was addressing the topic which is a good one. However If you believe that the comunity is REALLY upset about this securom issue then you haven't seen us cheesed yet

It's not completely about Securom.

I lost my internet connection in October '06. Before I went offline, I remembered the TW community being a very friendly, easy going lot who actually seemed to like the games.

I reconnect July '07, and I'm immediately struck by every other post is DAMN AI IS HORRIBLE, CA SUCKS, I'M NEVER BUYING ANOTHER TOTAL WAR GAME EVER, BOYCOTT!

While I was offline I played M2TW unpatched pretty much nonstop. Yeah the AI sucks, but I couldn't understand where all this rage was coming from. Mob mentality maybe? The Securom thread is just what put it over the top and motivated me to create this thread.

--- and barvaz, you put it much better than i did, ty.

[alpaca]

It's not completely about Securom.

I lost my internet connection in October '06. Before I went offline, I remembered the TW community being a very friendly, easy going lot who actually seemed to like the games.

I reconnect July '07, and I'm immediately struck by every other post is DAMN AI IS HORRIBLE, CA SUCKS, I'M NEVER BUYING ANOTHER TOTAL WAR GAME EVER, BOYCOTT!

While I was offline I played M2TW unpatched pretty much nonstop. Yeah the AI sucks, but I couldn't understand where all this rage was coming from. Mob mentality maybe? The Securom thread is just what put it over the top and motivated me to create this thread.

--- and barvaz, you put it much better than i did, ty.

It's probably a self-sustaining system. However I think that the people who rant (including myself sometimes) just "yell louder". I'd say most or all of us still like the games, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

[Husar]

It's just that I'm a bit tired of defending CA in the Citadel, defending Microsoft in the Hard- and Software forum, defending Bush in the Backroo....oh wait, I don't do that last one.

Anyway, we could assume that the people who like the game are busy playing it while all the others are simply bored and come here to talk about it.
That said, I do think some criticisms are a bit harsh, these games keep me playing for quite a long time usually which is something other more polished games do not achieve.

Concerning SecuROM, I'm not too worried since there is no activation limit or anything and format c: usually uninstalls most software quite reliably.

[TeutonicKnight]

I could care less about SecuRom software if it doesn't jack up my system. Considering I played Kingdoms all weekend and only noticed / found out about this today, I'd say it qualifies as something I can continue to ignore. It's a non-issue.

Great expansion, CA. End of the story for me. :)

[El Diablo]

It seems funny that the basis of this thread is "don't bash CA - instead bash SEGA".

SEGA have everty right to try and protect their property (note this is NOT an excuse for Securom or whatever) and they have a right to try and make money off their games.

Thus they pressure CA to get a job done and as none of us are in the loop we have no idea if it is SEGA giving impossible deadlines or CA draggin feet in getting a quality product out. Who knows.

All I know is there would not be a "SecuROM" issue if the Kingdoms expansion was terrible. No one would buy it. End of problem.

In the same way if SEGA/CA waited untill the product was totally bug free (impossible?) before release then it would probably go bankrupt.

As for gameplay... if you think the AI sucks then go play "Battles of Rome" game. That sucks.

[sapi]

It's probably a self-sustaining system. However I think that the people who rant (including myself sometimes) just "yell louder". I'd say most or all of us still like the games, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Ranting about the game - on a forum for that game - indicates that you stop far short of hatred

That said, we do have to take the polarising effect of forums into account (people are driven to enunciate more extreme positions than they would in a face to face conversation)

[Jason X]

as a long time lurker, i'm with the OP. on the other hand, the reason i'm now posting at the org is because it definitely has less childish posturing and more constructive criticism than the other TW forums.

[crpcarrot]

sorry i didnt read the whole thread but just wanted to point out that even on the securom thread noone is blaming CA i think its a problem with the industry as whole and and most probably due with accountants and bigwigs who have no idea how games are used.

edit: ok read whole thread now, aout the ranting it tends to get a bit childish when games are just released and the forum is full of teenages who seem to disapear in a month or 2. but everytime a new game/exp is announced/released it happens again.

although game developers have a right to protect ther revenue stream from piracy putting unecessary software into legitimate copies of the game is not going to help specially if the software has the POTENTIAL to cause problems for the end user in other ways. hopefully protection software will get standardised and less problematic in the future but it still makes no sense restricting paid cutomers use of software. as long as i cant copy the disk i should be ale to install it on all my computers. and if am not using it i should be ble to give to my mates or whoever.

[Daveybaby]

I agree crpcarrot - most of the discussion on there is about DRM and copy protection in general. Anyone on there who is blaming CA frankly doesnt have a clue what theyre talking about.

[Didz]

Well as far as I am concerned the SecuRom issue lies firmly on SEGA's doorstep. They own CA and they decided to jump on the SecuRom bandwagon.

However, its worth noting that were any legal action to arise from this issue then as your contract was with the retailer who sold you the game, neither CA, nor SEGA will be involved in the case, unless the retailer decides to join them as third parties. This caused a lot of confusion in the Blizzcon case where customers thought they could actually sue Blizzard, and wasted a lot of time and effort trying to do so. In my case any legal action will have to be taken against Play.com for selling me software without warning me that it contained invasive software.

[scsscsfanfan]

I could care less about SecuRom software if it doesn't jack up my system. Considering I played Kingdoms all weekend and only noticed / found out about this today, I'd say it qualifies as something I can continue to ignore. It's a non-issue.

Great expansion, CA. End of the story for me. :)

Your are right, it will not jack up your system now, but it's a potential security risk that someone won't like to take.

[Subedei]

Yesterday night I was trying to fight them infidel Christian Knights in a bridge battle with two steep roads running down a hill on each side...I am saying "trying" b/c all my soldiers were not able to move at all…stuck…on the edge of the valley ...battle lost.

That is usually the point when I think something like “Yeah, great….Why can’t the developers take more care about bugs like this?” You know this happens every now and then. NOT very often.

On the other hand: CA developed a game series which puts out great history related strategy games that caught my attention for years now, not to talk about these fantastic mods. TW games consume about 95% of my playing time…well I do not play more than 4 hrs. a week these days….A lot of EB…spiced up with some Vanilla M2tW…oh why not re-launch a RTR platinum and the new Kingdoms is out? Time for some anti-crusading as the Turks.

Maybe some people take the whole issue of sell- out, early releases etc. a bit too serious. It is a game and I guess every game has it’s flaws.

I am glad CA still develops new games…even with gunpowder …Imagine the fuzz if they would stop with the TW series….”Oh, that sucks!” is what I would say…..

[rebelscum]

It all comes down to money. Game titles make very little money nowadays. Its more quantity than quality. Given the high costs to develop in Europe also. They would be better outsourcing the next title to the far east.
Maybe then someone might listen as the support call centre would be right next door :)

[SpencerH]

As best as I can tell, it was sometime after the Viking Invasion XP.

[Shahed]

[I looked around and wasn't entirely sure where something like this belonged, so I plopped it here.]

I'm kind of flabbergasted at some of the comments about them in the Securom thread and many other threads since Medieval 2 came out. I think many people are far too harsh on the developers. It's not as if they sit in their offices drinking martinis and smoking cigars, cackling with their evil laughs as they watch everyone suffer weak AI and bugs.

Hardly anyone believes they're doing it on purpose but I dare to say that it's not that they don't care either. I'm sure they do care about the community and the quality of their product. These guys started out as fringe developers who made a small but sweet game in 1999 with what I would imagine was a very small team. Since then they've been bought and sold by very large global publishing companies, undoubtedly have had to swell their ranks with green personnel, and the Total War series has reached a level of popularity I'm sure they never expected. I'm sure they try their absolute best.

Unless I'm mistaken, as their owners,
SEGA decides on whether or not to put Securom on titles
SEGA decides to greenlight patches or not
SEGA decides when the development process has ended and it's time to rush the game.

I have nothing but respect for Creative Assembly as they make awesome, deep and incredibly addictive games that I can play for years and years, and I do. Most of the stuff that people bash them for is out of their control. They deserve a measure of criticism like everyone else, sure, but not as harsh as they get IMO.

Good post.

To be frank, history has pretty much repeated itself since MTW in three consecutive titles. Everything has it's limits, specially where my money, and most importantly my time is involved.

[alpaca]

Well, it depends or their specific contracts and agreements but it is more than likely that like many other publishers, SEGA controls the distribution, installation, packaging, manual , EULA and copy protection, among other things.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the actual software packaging, wrapping the game code with the installation software and integrating the 3rd party software like SecuROM is done by SEGA developers and not CA's themselves.

In any case, the final word is probably SEGA's and I don't imagine many game developers dropping their publisher for issues that not many consider fundamental (unlike distputes about money, artistic freedom or game design, for example) since copy protection at some level is considered de facto standard in the industry.


- barvaz

Ok I guess I have to back you here then. Had a chat with both Caliban and Palamedes today and neither of the two even knew that SecuROM was used in Kingdoms...

Anyways I'm a bit stumped at the total lack of comment from SEGA and CA on the issue. Maybe we should take it to the .com

[pevergreen]

Hmmm. Perhaps i should delve back into my starting forum, the Citadel.

If Palamedes and Caliban didn't know, that makes me suspicious.

After defending CA so much before M2TW came out, I gave myself a break. About to hook back into it for ETW.

In regards to CA, i agree with: the op, Husar and alpaca.

[sapi]

Ok I guess I have to back you here then. Had a chat with both Caliban and Palamedes today and neither of the two even knew that SecuROM was used in Kingdoms...

Anyways I'm a bit stumped at the total lack of comment from SEGA and CA on the issue. Maybe we should take it to the .com

Or give them a slight prod that the worst thing they could do now is to stay silent?

[ataribaby]

I have nothing but respect for Creative Assembly as they make awesome, deep and incredibly addictive games that I can play for years and years, and I do. Most of the stuff that people bash them for is out of their control. They deserve a measure of criticism like everyone else, sure, but not as harsh as they get IMO.

Well said mate. I've had the same feelings for several weeks. The hyperbolic ranting that goes on in games forums is pretty depressing. It really puts me off bothering being part of a community when the slightest problem is a 'gamebreaker', and the slightest sign of enthusiasm is subject to a gruelling browbeating.

I think the most depressing is the seeming lack of ability to appreciate what it takes to produce a game like M2TW. In all my 30 years of video gaming (I began on the Atari 2600 VCS, hence the screen name) I've seen a lot of advances. Games then were smaller in data size than your average WP document today (though they still had bugs ).

If only people could appreciate that with the levels of complexity we have now, that there are inevitably going to be glitches. Pointing them out, being a bit irritated by and/or suggesting work arounds to the community - fine. But piling the pressure on an already hard-pressed developer with rants of 'gamebreaker, blah-blah...' and 'my hard-earned cash, blah-blah...', seems tant amount to bullying. Who would ever bother to be a game developer again?

There seem to be too many people on these kinds of forums with a wildly distorted view of what it is to produce a game.

[Jasper The Builder]

I went out and brought Kingdoms after saying that i wouldn't bother due to the upheavals of problems i had with Medieval II. It works quite well and as of yet apart from a CTD after first installing mainly due to me not restarting my PC its been running fine and I'm quite happy with it

But i do disagree with people saying basically that its hard for developers to make games bug free and this and that, Then why sell them to the general public for high prices as they are "Kingdoms was £19.99 for me". Thats alot of money for me to pay out, But it was worth it. I didnt think the £29.99 i paid for MTWII was worth it though, It made me very angry that i had to change my hole PC make up just to suit one game

For those of us that money is hard to come by, I feel we have a right to complain and kick our feet and punch doors when spending alot of cash on games that are full of bugs!!

[Graphic]

Well said mate. I've had the same feelings for several weeks. The hyperbolic ranting that goes on in games forums is pretty depressing. It really puts me off bothering being part of a community when the slightest problem is a 'gamebreaker', and the slightest sign of enthusiasm is subject to a gruelling browbeating.

I think the most depressing is the seeming lack of ability to appreciate what it takes to produce a game like M2TW. In all my 30 years of video gaming (I began on the Atari 2600 VCS, hence the screen name) I've seen a lot of advances. Games then were smaller in data size than your average WP document today (though they still had bugs ).

If only people could appreciate that with the levels of complexity we have now, that there are inevitably going to be glitches. Pointing them out, being a bit irritated by and/or suggesting work arounds to the community - fine. But piling the pressure on an already hard-pressed developer with rants of 'gamebreaker, blah-blah...' and 'my hard-earned cash, blah-blah...', seems tant amount to bullying. Who would ever bother to be a game developer again?

There seem to be too many people on these kinds of forums with a wildly distorted view of what it is to produce a game.

Nicely put. Agree 100%.

I didnt think the £29.99 i paid for MTWII was worth it though, It made me very angry that i had to change my hole PC make up just to suit one game

I was running M2TW on my previous machine at 1.0, just barely, BARELY, meeting the minimum specs, and I didn't have to change anything about my PC settings or hardware. Are you sure you met the system requirements or didn't have some huge problem on your end?

[SpencerH]

Well said mate. I've had the same feelings for several weeks. The hyperbolic ranting that goes on in games forums is pretty depressing. It really puts me off bothering being part of a community when the slightest problem is a 'gamebreaker', and the slightest sign of enthusiasm is subject to a gruelling browbeating.

I think the most depressing is the seeming lack of ability to appreciate what it takes to produce a game like M2TW. In all my 30 years of video gaming (I began on the Atari 2600 VCS, hence the screen name) I've seen a lot of advances. Games then were smaller in data size than your average WP document today (though they still had bugs ).

If only people could appreciate that with the levels of complexity we have now, that there are inevitably going to be glitches. Pointing them out, being a bit irritated by and/or suggesting work arounds to the community - fine. But piling the pressure on an already hard-pressed developer with rants of 'gamebreaker, blah-blah...' and 'my hard-earned cash, blah-blah...', seems tant amount to bullying. Who would ever bother to be a game developer again?

There seem to be too many people on these kinds of forums with a wildly distorted view of what it is to produce a game.

I dont know about anyone else, but I dont give a crap what effort it takes to make a game. It's irrelevant. I'm here to voice my disappointment with M2TW in the hope that CA will make a game that I can enjoy. I have no false hope that it will have any effect though; CA didnt appear to take notice of us during and after RTW.


BTW, I would gladly pay more for new TW games if thats what it took for CA to develop games that weren't "RTS in fancy dress". On the other hand though, I wont pay for any more like RTW and M2TW. In fact if I could get my money back for M2TW I'd gladly send it back.