Revisiting VnVs

**Sensei Warrior** · 09-05-2007, 02:15

After reading an older post about princesses, I thought maybe another stroll down memory lane was in order. I liked the game's concept of virtues and vices. I like trying to get the virtues, and have learned reasonably well how to avoid the vices.

I am sure there are VnVs that cannot be gained in gameplay, for example Autocrat (at least I've never been able to do it). However there are a good number that can, such as Steward, or Scant Mercy.

The question posed is what VnVs do you farm/mine/endeavor to get for your kings and generals, and how?

Do any of you guys farm the less obvious traits? I dont know what the less obvious ones are because I've never accidentally gotten one in gameplay. The only reason I know some of the VnVs exist is because they sit in the VnV list. What oddball ones can be gained, if any?

If it makes any difference, I am wondering more about generals than kings because the general's VnVs hang around longer than the King's, (the king dies whereas the general doesn't unless you've turned that option on).

**seireikhaan** · 09-05-2007, 03:33

Well, I have a tendency to 'farm' the atheist trait amonst my enemies when playing as a catholic kingdom. Really helps with the flammability of enemy princes/kings/generals. A personal favorite of mine is to turn the Pope into an atheist by turning the inquisition on him repeatedly. There was even one game where I managed to burn the Pope at the stake for heresy, thanks to the uber 7 star grand inquisitor I'd been training up.

**Sensei Warrior** · 09-05-2007, 05:06

It's always funny to see an atheist pope. Even funnier to watch him burn. It stinks when it backfires and he gets True Believer or some such. Of course then it turns into, 'hmm, I know I left that 7*Assassin round here somewhere'

.

**macsen rufus** · 09-05-2007, 10:19

The only ones I really put any effort into are the combat related ones - skilled attacker/defender/against odds etc etc. What REALLY bugs me though, is training up a general (often the heir to the throne - I like to keep those guys active

), he finally gains a couple of stars, then suddenly develops "Pride", and loses them instantly

. Or else it's the chap you just made Duke of Trebizond.... God, I HATE pride, it is the most irritating vice of all... so Sensei, if you have any special suggestions to avoid pride, I'd love to hear them

At least with the 'drinker' line, you end up with "Dead drunk", when thanks to helpful assistants, all his faculties return, and the final trade off is -20 health.

Virtue farming is a bit "gamey" for my taste. I think it's a bit naff that you can say build/destroy/rebuild basic farmland and end up with "Steward" etc - IMHO, he should get "timewaster", "bad planner" or something

Obviously, if in the normal course of events a governor acquires a "steward" virtue, he may well be transferred to a richer province (I mean, haven't you noticed it's always the Amir of Sinai that gets that one first?

)

Oh, and sometimes, given the chance I'll have a general kill off all his prisoners to get the "Butcher" vice, but I believe you need over a thousand prisoners for that to work, which can be heck of a lot of ransom money forsaken.

Likewise, with "Autocrat", I've only ever seen that on starting kings. I also don't think I've ever seen the Traderking line develop in-game either, but then I usually play XL rather than vanilla, and as trade is wound down a bit in that I pay less attention to it compared to other income streams.

What I've also found is that certain provinces seem to give certain vices - there have been numerous occasions where a general on garrison duty has earned something nasty (like inbred, etc), so I've swapped him out for another guy, only for the new guy to get exactly the same vice the first year he's there... I don't think it's the same provinces in each game either, so it could still be random, but at the time it looks like a pattern developing...

**Martok** · 09-05-2007, 21:54

I don't really go out of my way to get certain traits for my generals/governors, but they often gain particular virtues simply because of how I play the game. Because I'm a turtler and I like to focus on internal development, a good number of my guys usually get the Builder and/or Steward traits. Also, since a good number of my governors are veterans of Crusades & Jihads, quite a few of them tend to have the Pious/Zealous traits as well.

As for the more military-oriented traits, I usually don't go for anything specific. I tend to roleplay my generals instead, depending on what traits they start out with. If a general starts with traits that increase his dread (such as Killer Instinct), then I'm more likely to play him out as a ruthless character who will execute most -- if not all -- of any prisoners captured in battle.

On the flip side, I usually make sure a general with traits such as Chivalrous or Honourable Warrior behaves accordingly (releasing prisoners and whatnot).

**Sensei Warrior** · 09-05-2007, 23:35

Originally Posted by macsen rufus

What REALLY bugs me though, is training up a general (often the heir to the throne - I like to keep those guys active

), he finally gains a couple of stars, then suddenly develops "Pride", and loses them instantly

. Or else it's the chap you just made Duke of Trebizond.... God, I HATE pride, it is the most irritating vice of all... so Sensei, if you have any special suggestions to avoid pride, I'd love to hear them

At least with the 'drinker' line, you end up with "Dead drunk", when thanks to helpful assistants, all his faculties return, and the final trade off is -20 health.

I can't recall getting Pride to much. Maybe I've just lucked out. So I guess I do have suggestions on how to avoid it, I just dont know what they are

.

I usually save Steward and the such for my first couple of Kings. I usually end up improving agriculture in the beginning so it isnt hard for the first King or 2 to get it. After that, meh, if they get it great, if not oh well.

Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Oh, and sometimes, given the chance I'll have a general kill off all his prisoners to get the "Butcher" vice, but I believe you need over a thousand prisoners for that to work, which can be heck of a lot of ransom money forsaken.

It certainly is alot, but then again Butcher is one I'm drawn to, I like hearing the execution sound.

I believe Autocrat is only for starting and hero kings. I've never seen it proc during a game. I read somewhere here getting the TraderKing line started is easy enough, but you gotta build and destroy mines to do it. Why mines I have no idea, I've never tried it but plan on it next game. Course that lumps it into the Timewaster category like Steward, eh?

I cant help but like 'Odd number of toes'. Its just too funny.

Martok, I've seen that as well. My playing style has certain VnVs that crop up again and again. I was beginning to wonder if there were any else out there besides, Skilled Attacker/Defender, Pious, Zealot, the Accumen adding ones (are these mined or random?), Scant Mercy, and the infamous Butcher one. I'm sure Im leaving some out. I'm really gonna start a Push to see how many VnVs I can give a General. Although the last time I did that he didnt get any

Edit: You think I could convey ideas better since English is my native language, but alas, tis not so it would seem. Errors corrected.

**The Unknown Guy** · 09-07-2007, 10:24

Some virtues are battle related, through not reliable. I´ve seem lords gain such traits after big bloodsheds, althrough not in an easily determined fashion. I suspect valor gains are related.

**Haccapelite** · 09-07-2007, 15:03

Originally Posted by macsen rufus

God, I HATE pride, it is the most irritating vice of all... At least with the 'drinker' line, you end up with "Dead drunk", when thanks to helpful assistants, all his faculties return, and the final trade off is -20 health.

I guess I have been pretty lucky in my games, I mainly get pride-virtue to 'normal' (non-general) units and for them it's just good, because the valour bonus it gives is really useful for them. I just recently got a viking huscarl-unit get both pride and utterly fearless virtues, giving them a +6 valour..

I couldn't agree more with the drunk-line of vices. One of my six-star generals lost most of his stars because of it, and now he is 'drinking himself to death', and I got his stars back but I don't think I'll use him on the battlefield again, he could trip on a rock and kill himself during a fight. Also, inbred-vice is absolutely irritating, I have lost many good generals to that.

**ULC** · 09-09-2007, 23:32

I always wondered at how a general/king/prince managed to get the inbred line AFTER they were born....................suggestions?
As to "farming" VnV, I seem to attract the "charismatic" line of traits, along with the "glutton", "drinking" and "specialist" lines. Speaking of which, has anyone ever gotten the "sieger" line?