When in history...

[Gazius]

When in history did the first real empires start appearing, in the Indo-european region. I think that's right. From Britain to North Africa and from Gades to the further reaches of eastern India. If one wanted a RTS modelling the rise from the city states to the fullest might of the Roman Empire, how far back could you go? 1200 BC? And I mean, potential for empire, not just, there's pharoahs in Egypt, a Egyptian empire, not in history, but in the furthest stretch of the imagination, could have waged war with another empire, perhaps the spartan empire, or Athenian, or a earlier greek empire? What about in Africa, Gaul, and Iberia? Was there enough people in these regions to really make an empire?

I guess, to really boil it down, if someone were to make a mod on a miniscale, say the Iberian peninsula, and the hypothetical rise of a single nation there, when could it happen? Or are there truly massive barriers in history that prevented this from happening?

[Bootsiuv]

Historical empires
Early empires
Elamite Empire (c. 2700 BC - 539 BC)
Akkadian Empire (c. 2350 BC - 2150 BC)
Ur III Empire (c. 2100 BC - 2000 BC)
Babylonian Empire (c. 1900 BC - 1600 BC)
Egyptian Empire (1550 BC - 1070 BC)
Hittite Empire (c. 1460 BC - 1180 BC)
Phoenicia Empire (1200BC-800BC)
Israelite Empire (1050 BC - 920 BC)
Assyrian Empire (c. 900 BC - 612 BC)
Carthaginian Empire (c. 814 BC - 146 BC)
Achaemenid Empire (Persian Empire, c. 550 BC - 330 BC)
Magadhan Empire (500 BC - 300/139 BC?)
Macedonian Empire (c. 338 BC - 309 BC)
Mauryan Empire (321 BC - 185 BC)
Seleucid Empire (323 BC - 60 BC)
Chinese Empire (221 BC - AD 1912) (Various inter-Imperial periods excluded)
Parthian Empire (c. 200 BC – AD 224)
Roman Empire (241 BC - AD 476)
First millennium AD
Sassanian Empire (224 - 651)
Palmyrene Empire (260 – 272)
Teotihuacano Empire (300 BC - 600/700)
Gupta Empire (320 - 550)
Tiahuanaco Empire (500-1000)
Aksumite Empire (ca. 200 - 1974; becomes Zagwe dynasty, then Solomonic dynasty of Ethiopia)
Byzantine Empire (323* - 1453) (*actual date disputed)
Frankish Empire (c. 509 – 843)
Srivijaya Empire (c. 300 - 1300s)
Tibetan Empire (c. 600s – 1000s)
Arab Empire (c. 630 - 1258)
Bulgarian Empire (681 - 1018; 1185 - 1396)
Chalukya Empire (c. 543 - c. 1189)
Rashtrakuta Empire (735 – 982)
Chola Empire (800s - 1200s)
Venetian Empire (800s - 1797)
Khmer Empire (802 - 1462)
Great Moravian Empire (833 - 900s)
Norman Empire (911 - 1100s)
Ghana Empire (c. 900 - 1240)
Tu'i Tonga Empire (950 – 1875?)
Ghaznavid Empire (963 - 1187)
Baekjae Empire
Goguryeo Empire (37 BCE - 668)
Balhae Empire (698 - 926)
Vietnamese Empire (938? - 1945)
Early second millennium AD
Hoysala Empire (1026 – 1343)
Seljuk Empire (c. 1037 - 1194)
Kongo Empire (c. 1100 - c. 1884)
Latin Empire (1204 – 1261)
Mongol Empire (1206 - 1502)
Majapahit Empire (1293 - c. 1500)
Mali Empire (1235 - 1645)
Serbian Empire (1345 - 1371)
Vijayanagara Empire (c. 1336 - 1650)
Siam Empire (1350 – c. 1909)
Aztec Empire (1375 - 1521)
Golden Horde (1378 - 1502)
Songhai Empire (1400s - 1500s)
Timurid Empire (1401 - 1505)
Incan Empire (1438 - 1533)
Early to middle second millennium AD
Danish colonial empire (1200s - 1953)
Hungarian Empire (1000 - 1918)
Ottoman Empire (1281 - 1923)
Portuguese Empire (1415 - 1999)
Spanish Empire (1492 - present) [8]
Late second millennium AD
British Empire (1607 - present)[9]
Safavid Empire (1502-1722)
Mughal Empire (1526 - 1857)
Swedish Empire (1561 - 1878)
French colonial empires (c. 1605 - present)[10]
French Empire (1804–1814 or 1815, 1852–1870)
Dutch Empire (1620 - present)[11]
Maratha Empire (1674 - 1761)
Russian Empire (1721 - 1917)
Zulu Empire (1837 - 1897)
Austrian Empire (1804 - 1867)
Mexican Empire (1822 - 1823, 1864 - 1867)
Brazilian Empire (1822 - 1889)
Austro-Hungarian Empire (1867 - 1918)
German Empire (1871 - 1918)
German colonial empire (1884 - 1918)
Japanese Empire (1871 - 1945)
Italian Empire (1885 - 1943)
Korean Empire (1897 - 1910)
20th century AD
Belgian Empire (1901 – 1962)
Soviet Union (1917/1922 – 1991)
Nazi Germany (1933 – 1945)
Central African Empire (1977 – 1979)
21st century empires
American empire (1898 – present) {Status disputed}[12]
Eurosphere (1995 – present)[13]
Source: Wikipedia, "Empires"

Does that help? You asked what the earliest empires were, that's every empire in history, courtesy of Wikipedia.

[Cash Staks]

Well done. That's quite a few empires.

I recall an early empire in India (I think it was India but I'm not quite certain), that one of my history professors discussed. Keep in mind I'm an Accountancy major. This one predated many empires apparently. I do remember the professor saying that archeologists found it astonishing that cities with this sort of structure were found so early in history. It suggested the use of irrigation. In any case, I can't remember the date of this empire nor the location so this is of no use I guess. I do know that it predated many of the typical empires that people know of and it was relatively short lived. Or I could just be completely wrong

[blitzkrieg80]

what about the Minoans and the Myceneans for that matter?

The Huns and Khazars formed something of an empire in the usual advanced notion of khan and khaganate along the steppe.

the Gothic title Reiks (borrowed from Celtic rix) very much implies an advanced concept of kingship and overlordship of multiple peoples and sub-rulers on par with empire, such as that under Ermanarik.

Come to think of it now... what exactly is the criterion for "empire" for this thread? It surely isn't the title Imperator or "General" and it also isn't the idea of Principate and status as "First Citizen." Many of those listed, such as the Normans probably shouldn't qualify. A successful kingship which stretchs far and encompasses different peoples is still a kingship... there is an important distinction between regules and rex... thus, concept of government and authority of the "emperor" over his sub-kings becomes an important determination. The language of the titles used by those empires become more important than our English translation... Austria (Osterreich) and France (Frankreich) are still called "Empires" in the Modern German names for those countries, while Russia is not, and if anything these days, Russia is still more of an empire than either of those. the Persian shāhanshāh "king of kings" might be the first true emperor in that the title actually meant more than the title of those before... it is not enough to simply have territory and power, language and perception must also recognize the uniqueness of that position in contrast of those under it

[Thaatu]

Empire is a pretty loose term. I guess it has something to do with subjucating other nations with force. Even the "trading empire" of the Canaanites must have used military power to clear a spot for their colonies, but sometimes not.

[artavazd]

I think empire would be the control of area territory outside of ones ethnic boundries. If its withing the ethnic boundries than I consider it a kingdom.

[kambiz]

@Bootsiuv
I think you (Or wiki infact) missed the Median empire or
Shahan Shahi'e Mad

[Zaknafien]

Don't forget about the Harappan civilisation in modern India. Id even place the beginning of empires before that. Someone built the Pyramids, after all you know, in about what, 2611 BCE? That list is flawed too, I briefly glanced at it, but there was never a such thing as an "Israelite Empire".

[blitzkrieg80]

ethnic boundaries? there's a loose term... in fact, before the rise of nationalism, that would make no sense to many throughout the world... indentity is an important and often overlooked factor in the development of state and history... for example, the British Empire was not called so simply because of Wales and Cornwall, even though their ethnicity would be technically different... Empire is actually a word misused throughout history, when in should be closer indentified with the elements that made it unique in a world of diverse kingships in the first place. The Romans were not the first, but they certainly defined the language.

I thought Israelite Empire seemed a little odd too... in fact, I bet that was added by a proud certain someone (not anyone here) with an agenda, going unchallenged until someone says "what the," as Wikipedia usually goes...

[artavazd]

ethnic boundaries? there's a loose term... in fact, before the rise of nationalism, that would make no sense to many throughout the world... indentity is an important and often overlooked factor in the development of state and history... for example, the British Empire was not called so simply because of Wales and Cornwall, even though their ethnicity would be technically different... Empire is actually a word misused throughout history, when in should be closer indentified with the elements that made it unique in a world of diverse kingships in the first place. The Roman's were not the first, but they certainly defined the language.

I thought Israelite Empire seemed a little odd too... in fact, I bet that was added by a proud certain someone (not anyone here) with an agenda, going unchallenged until someone says "what the," as Wikipedia usually goes...

there were cases of nationalism before the 19th century. in the 5th century AD during the Armeno-Persian wars many refrences were made to the fatherland and faith.

[Sarkiss]

I thought Israelite Empire seemed a little odd too... in fact, I bet that was added by a proud certain someone (not anyone here) with an agenda, going unchallenged until someone says "what the," as Wikipedia usually goes...

hey, where is Armenian empire of Tigran the Great?

[Bootsiuv]

Come to think about it, that list also doesn't include the Athenian Empire, short-lived as it was. Maybe it isn't every empire in history.

[Cash Staks]

Come to think about it, that list also doesn't include the Athenian Empire, short-lived as it was. Maybe it isn't every empire in history.

Well, as some have said, empire is a pretty loose term. So I'm sure there would be much debate between people as to what constitutes an empire and then what "empires" could actually be called such.

[Benandorf]

That's a long list of Empires! And it's mildly depressing that the majority of human history was just broken down into about 50 lines...

[bovi]

Human history is only about empires ?

[Bootsiuv]

Well, not only about empires....but I'd say they've played a pretty central role in people's lives for most of recorded history.

BTW, wasn't there an Israelite Empire around 900 BCE?

[Zaknafien]

No, there wasnt. Recent archaeology has disproven most of the claims laid out in the Torah about the 'kingdoms' of David and Solomon. Jerusalem in the era was really only a backwater town with no real influence, while the Kingdom of Israel in the north was somewhat stronger, but still only a local power. In reality the Egyptians controlled most of that territory for centuries into the supposed time of the Israelite kings.

[fallen851]

Human history is only about empires ?

When you live in the United States, where everything is about being bigger and better than everyone, yes.

If you live in Norway, whose power hasn't been great for a long time, probably not.

[Bootsiuv]

Why would you feel the need to take a crack at the US? Isn't there enough of that in the political mudpit on TWC? Go over there and do that stuff....let's leave the US bashing for another forum, yes?

BTW, have you ever been to America? I assume your from Norway. I do so love how people from Europe just think they know everything about us....I've heard so many stereotypes about the american people, it's getting really old.

@Zaknafien

Oh, really? That's very interesting. Thanks for your help! :)

[Sassem]

@Bootsiuv

Belgian Empire (1901 – 1962)

Wow Yesterday on the news I heard they ha(ve)d political problems something between the Vlamingen and the Waloniers (sp) I know the news is lagging a little bit behind but 45 years thats a bit too much

Do I miss something or can I drive down there and put my flag in the ground

[Bovarius]

Sassem, try us!

We kicked you out once, we'll do it again

And the troubles in Belgium are just something that has been a problem from the start of Belgium. Its quiet normal that a country in which you have 2 different people speaking two different languages (Vlamingen and Walen) you can have issues. But politicians can sometimes blow the matters so much up, together with the media that it looks like a country is falling apart. If so, it has been faling apart for 176 years, not that bad i thing.

PS: STOP MAKING HEINEKEN, its horrible!

[TWFanatic]

No, there wasnt. Recent archaeology has disproven most of the claims laid out in the Torah about the 'kingdoms' of David and Solomon. Jerusalem in the era was really only a backwater town with no real influence, while the Kingdom of Israel in the north was somewhat stronger, but still only a local power. In reality the Egyptians controlled most of that territory for centuries into the supposed time of the Israelite kings.

Interesting. Now I'm not doubting you, but could you provide any sources or links regarding these recent arechaeological discoveries?

[Conradus]

Apperently Belgian Empire is referring to the time when we still had a colony: Congo, but if that's true, then every European nation should be on the list, and the USA. They al had colonies, even the US. Biased list, that's for sure.

And we're a long way from falling apart here in Belgium.

[bovi]

Why would you feel the need to take a crack at the US? Isn't there enough of that in the political mudpit on TWC? Go over there and do that stuff....let's leave the US bashing for another forum, yes?

BTW, have you ever been to America? I assume your from Norway. I do so love how people from Europe just think they know everything about us....I've heard so many stereotypes about the american people, it's getting really old.

Err... I think he was referring to me being Norwegian. Your remark, generalizing all of Europe, is not appreciated. Let's leave it at that.

[blitzkrieg80]

Arg!!

And here I was seriously challenging the definition of "empire" in people's minds based on language... And somehow people have to talk some nonsense, insulting Norway, not the US, and yes, let's get back to the point.

Armenia. A good point there... as someone else said, where's that on the list?... now if Armenia is to be defined an empire, what is the title it's leader took? Can something greater than king be found, because if not, it's not an empire. Empires involve sub-kings, but the definition of kings is vague so that sub-dukes are entirely possible too, but merely being King and successful and having different peoples is not enough. Now, I'm not saying the amazing effort of ancient Armenia was not enough, but somebody elucidate this.

PS- the kingdom(s) of the ancient Israeli were still interesting and worthy of mention... the point was that the exagerated propoganda isn't supported by evidence... I'm not talking about religion by the way, before any sensitive types explode

[Bootsiuv]

Err... I think he was referring to me being Norwegian. Your remark, generalizing all of Europe, is not appreciated. Let's leave it at that.

Well, his remark, generalizing all of America, was not appreciated. Let's leave it at that.

EDIT: BTW, I don't have anything against Europeans....look at the threads I've started and you'll see that I'm trying to increase community involvement. I just have something against the Europeans who think all americans are crack-smoking imperialists who drive SUVs and eat at McDonald's everyday.
EDIT2: After re-reading my post....I didn't even generalize all of Europe....I said people from Europe, which doesn't imply all people from europe....take a chill pill guy.

That dude just implied that every american is an imperialist. That's simply not the case. Allright I'm going back to being my usual nice self, and I hope we can just put this behind us.

No hard feelings, Bovi?

[Lysander13]

Well, his remark, generalizing all of America, was not appreciated. Let's leave it at that.

EDIT: BTW, I don't have anything against Europeans....look at the threads I've started and you'll see that I'm trying to increase community involvement. I just have something against the Europeans who think all americans are crack-smoking imperialists who drive SUVs and eat at McDonald's everyday.
EDIT2: After re-reading my post....I didn't even generalize all of Europe....I said people from Europe, which doesn't imply all people from europe....take a chill pill guy.

That dude just implied that every american is an imperialist. That's simply not the case. Allright I'm going back to being my usual nice self, and I hope we can just put this behind us.

No hard feelings, Bovi?

Easy friend...I think you've read this whole thing wrong. The "dude" who you said implied that every American is an imperialist......I suspect is umm...well....an American. So you see he wasn't taking a shot at the good 'ol USA. It seems it was more a bit of unfortunate chest thumping at someone else's expense...in this case Norway maybe, heh?

[Bootsiuv]

Well, whatever.

I don't like the image of americans as imperialists. Maybe Bush is, but I'm not, and I doubt any of my neighbors are either.

[Comemnus]

Not to re-ingnite an argument but the US is kind of being imperialish right now. Generally speaking the term empire just describes the most powerful country in existence, at any given time; which is why there is almost always an empire somewhere. The reason empire is considered a negative thing is because you usually have to be rather... violent... to get to the top of the pile.


just fyi
<---- American

[NeoSpartan]

Not to re-ingnite an argument but the US is kind of being imperialish right now. Generally speaking the term empire just describes the most powerful country in existence, at any given time; which is why there is almost always an empire somewhere. The reason empire is considered a negative thing is because you usually have to be rather... violent... to get to the top of the pile.


just fyi
<---- American

not to re-ignite??? u guys are funny.