Mercenaries and what you can do with them

[gregori99]

Despite playing this game for years, I'm still finding the odd thing I never knew.

I don't use mercenaries much and when I do I don't keep them around once they've achieved their immediate objective. So it was a surprise when I found I could have the leader of a mercenary unit marry into my royal family.

So what would happen if all the heirs died and this guy was the only one left when the king died? Could he become king or would it just be game over? I suspect the latter.

It would be nice if merc units could reinforce themselves over time, like the king can. It would be historically accurate. Is that moddable, or hard-coded? Being able to name specific units, like in Panzer General, is the one thing missing from the game that would have really have enhanced it, IMO.

[Prussian1]

I personally love to use mercs early on playing as GRE. Ater taking Pomerania FIRST TURN of the game, I always build an inn ASAP. This allows me to attract mercs quick for an Instant Army of very high quality troops before the cash crunch hits. I then take those guys and take Ile de France, Flanders, and Champaign.

All in all, an excellent opening.

I agree with you that it would be very historically accurate for mercs to rebuild their numbers. However, I would asusme that it would screw up game balance something fierce.

I would have personally loved to have seen a "contract conversion feature" in which you could buy out a merc company's contract and bring them on a full-time household troops.

[Martok]

Despite playing this game for years, I'm still finding the odd thing I never knew.

I don't use mercenaries much and when I do I don't keep them around once they've achieved their immediate objective. So it was a surprise when I found I could have the leader of a mercenary unit marry into my royal family.

So what would happen if all the heirs died and this guy was the only one left when the king died? Could he become king or would it just be game over? I suspect the latter.

The game would simply end. It was long rumored that generals married into the royal family could become the new faction ruler upon the death of the current monarch, but it's (unfortunately) not true.

It would be nice if merc units could reinforce themselves over time, like the king can. It would be historically accurate. Is that moddable, or hard-coded? Being able to name specific units, like in Panzer General, is the one thing missing from the game that would have really have enhanced it, IMO.

I agree it would be nice if mercenary regiments in MTW replenished their ranks. Unfortunately, Prussian1 is essentially correct that this would unbalance things. To be specific, it would unbalance things *further*, as the AI does not (and probably cannot) take advantage of mercs at all.

I'm not sure if the mercs can be modded so that their numbers rebound after battle losses. I doubt it, though. I seem to recall others have investigated this, only to discover it was hard-coded.

I would have personally loved to have seen a "contract conversion feature" in which you could buy out a merc company's contract and bring them on a full-time household troops.

Me too! The Byzantines were well-known for employing mercenaries who -- for all intents and purposes -- were a part of the regular army.

[Sensei Warrior]

It would also be cool if you could reinforce the merc units you have, if you had the same building types. For example, as the English, you picked up a unit of merc Swabian Swordsmen. IIRC they require a Royal Court and a Swordsmith (if the SS dont than please just play along ). As long as you had the requirements, you could replenish that unit, but not make any new units.

That doesn't seem too bad, but perhaps still leaves the door open for abuse.

[macsen rufus]

One thing I really miss from the "vanilla-vanilla" edition (ie the original, unpatched, pre-VI release) was that mercs were mergeable - not only with each other but also with non-merc units of the same type. That was the nearest thing to contract conversion that I can recall. Many a time I would drain a broken merc unit to transfer its men into a "regular" unit. For some reason CA "fixed" this

[Haccapelite]

I dont usually use mercenaries, but there are a few exceptions:
-If I attack a province that has at least a castle in it, I usually hire some siege-equipment mercenaries to use if i have to assault the castle since I dont normally bother to build those pre-gunpowder siege-equipment myself.
-If I see some special units (eg. italian inf. on early or some nice shocktroops like gallowglasses) I might hire them if I can use them almost immediately.
I disband my mercenaries right after they have fulfilled the task I needed them for, because the support costs are so high.

[Prussian1]

-If I attack a province that has at least a castle in it, I usually hire some siege-equipment mercenaries to use if i have to assault the castle since I dont normally bother to build those pre-gunpowder siege-equipment myself.
-If I see some special units (eg. italian inf. on early or some nice shocktroops like gallowglasses) I might hire them if I can use them almost immediately.
I disband my mercenaries right after they have fulfilled the task I needed them for, because the support costs are so high.

Well thought out. I use them for very specific blitzkrieg missions and let them go a few at a time as I get troops trained up in the newly taken provinces. With the exception of units I will never have access to, I try not to keep a mercenary unit more than ten turns.

[Noir]

Mercenaries give an extraordinary flexibility to the human player as they are. They give the advantage to quickly transform earnings into military strength and be able to disband them whenever pleases the player, both things impossible for the AI. They are an interesting game element nonetheless and offer potential for modding.

Noir

[Martok]

Like Haccapelite, I will hire mercenary artillery crews from time to time, particularly if they're trebuchets or mangonels. I also admit to adding mercs to Crusades, although I usually limit myself to special units such as Vikings, Welsh Bandits, etc. Aside from that, however, I avoid using them.

Mercenaries give an extraordinary flexibility to the human player as they are. They give the advantage to quickly transform earnings into military strength and be able to disband them whenever pleases the player, both things impossible for the AI.

Which is why I limit my use of them. Mercs are a fun gameplay element, but they put the AI at too much of a disadvantage.

[Brandy Blue]

The game would simply end. It was long rumored that generals married into the royal family could become the new faction ruler upon the death of the current monarch, but it's (unfortunately) not true.


I agree it would be nice if mercenary regiments in MTW replenished their ranks. Unfortunately, Prussian1 is essentially correct that this would unbalance things. To be specific, it would unbalance things *further*, as the AI does not (and probably cannot) take advantage of mercs at all.

I'm not sure if the mercs can be modded so that their numbers rebound after battle losses. I doubt it, though. I seem to recall others have investigated this, only to discover it was hard-coded.


Me too! The Byzantines were well-known for employing mercenaries who -- for all intents and purposes -- were a part of the regular army.

Seems to me that the game does an okay job of handling mercinaries as part of the Byzantine standing army. The Byzantine Emperor would be the only Christian ruler who could afford to have a standing army, never mind a standing army partly made up of expensive mercinaries. (I cannot comment on Muslim armies because of my shameful ignorance. ) So instead of allowing everyone to nationalize mercs, the game allows the Byzantines to raise units which were historically mercs (Varangian Guard and Bulgarian Brigands) but function - as you say - as part of the regular army. Not a perfect solution, but seems acceptable to me.

[The Unknown Guy]

The Fatimid Khalifas had big standing armies as well, mostly mercenary. The Turkish Janissaries were a standing army in their own right, partially mercenary. As for the Almohads, I am not sure. They were strong apparently in its day, but on the other hand, they got wiped out all the way to Seville after the Spanish realms joined forces...

[Roark]

With the exception of big siege engines, I only employ mercs when I see something really special which I can't train myself due to faction/location restrictions etc.

I just hired two units of lancers as the Turks in 1229, one of them with Pride.

Can't wait to try them out against the Mongols...

[Prussian1]

The Byzantine Emperor would be the only Christian ruler who could afford to have a standing army, never mind a standing army partly made up of expensive mercinaries.

One of the things that makes my subconcience go "you're playing a game" is fielding medieval units as standing armies year after year, all year.

I do suppose that one could justify this by concluding that the "one year turn" does not assume everything is taking one year, but the events modeled occur at some point in the given year. Therefore, a unit of - say spearmen - would be fulfilling their feudal obligation to their lord over a few months rather than being in the field all twelve months.

This would also help suspend the disbelief of a fleet of ships being out in the middle of the North Atlantic for 10 years

[The Unknown Guy]

The problem is that a full simulation of the feudal system would be... complicated. Maybe by making units raised on a province lower permanently its income until resettled? Or, for what I´ve heard about the new TW games system, lowering its population, until disbanded?

I think that overrrealism is usually wearing, in any event. For instance: turns, as they are now, can be long enough (honestly, how often you fight the six 45 minute battles that can arise in a single turn? I pick the most interesting one, or ones, and autocalc the rest (barring sure defeats which I could turn around)

[Sensei Warrior]

I agree about the whole realism thing. I mean if the game was uber-accurate, we'd never conquer the map, or maybe not even allowed to conquer the map.

I just thought of something. Has anyone ever played a whole game, using mostly to all merc troops? Something like, outside garrison troops (troops you use to keep provence from rebelling, usually 1-2 units of peasants), and troops attached to a leading general (an actual govenor), all others must be mercenaries.

I wonder if it can be done? I think it can. Cant wait to get near my comp to try it.

[macsen rufus]

I just thought of something. Has anyone ever played a whole game, using mostly to all merc troops? Something like, outside garrison troops (troops you use to keep provence from rebelling, usually 1-2 units of peasants), and troops attached to a leading general (an actual govenor), all others must be mercenaries.

Now that's an interesting possibility - downside woulde be cost of troops and upkeep, but assuming all you needed to train would be peasants for garrison (or anything else that can come from the fort, like slav warriors etc), your teching-up costs would be minimal.

That would be quite a challenge, maybe I'll give it a go, too

So the general "rules" for such a challenge would be:
* NO military buildings (spearmaker, bowyer, horsebreeder etc etc etc) just INNS for recruitment of mercs
* only trainable troops to be those that come from forts
* the only other faction troops would be ROYALS/ex-royals
* hmmm, what about crusades/jihads?
* is bribery allowed - I would say yes, I think.

We may well learn the limits of the "mercenary pool" in a campaign like this

[Ignoramus]

I've done it many times. It's sadly a very effective way of winning. Why bother upgrading your provinces when you can quickly assemble a formidable army of mercs.

You simply blitz the weaker enemy in order to fund your soldiers.

[Prussian1]

I've done it many times. It's sadly a very effective way of winning. Why bother upgrading your provinces when you can quickly assemble a formidable army of mercs.

You simply blitz the weaker enemy in order to fund your soldiers.

That's actually pretty cool . . .

Did you have any issues of mercs being unavailable?

[Martok]

Did you have any issues of mercs being unavailable?

I'm curious about this as well. I know mercenaries are more likely to show up in border provinces (as they're undersandably drawn to where the wars are), but I've always wondered whether *enough* mercs would appear to sustain one's armies.

[Sensei Warrior]

Now that's an interesting possibility - downside woulde be cost of troops and upkeep, but assuming all you needed to train would be peasants for garrison (or anything else that can come from the fort, like slav warriors etc), your teching-up costs would be minimal.

That would be quite a challenge, maybe I'll give it a go, too

Seems, like I threw down the gauntlet somewhere. Whoot! Let us see, as long as I've got an interested party, rules are a good thing.

So the general "rules" for such a challenge would be:
* NO military buildings (spearmaker, bowyer, horsebreeder etc etc etc) just INNS for recruitment of mercs

Agreed. Although retraining Royal Units is gonna be a pain in the hoop. Are we considering ship-building buildings a no no? I cant imagine we are, at least not if we want to trade. And what about the cannon foundry stuff late game? That technically should be added in as well.

* only trainable troops to be those that come from forts

Agreed. Watch and I'll be grabbing Scotland ASAP.

* the only other faction troops would be ROYALS/ex-royals

Agreed, but as stated above, if we cant build the buildings, then no being able to retrain the Royals.

* hmmm, what about crusades/jihads?

I think Crusades/Jihads should be allowed, but go easy on the Jihad spamming.

* is bribery allowed - I would say yes, I think.

Yes, all sorts of vile deviant treachery is allowed. Burn em, stick em, and bribe em are all acceptable.

We may well learn the limits of the "mercenary pool" in a campaign like this

I believe you're right. Now for the Nitty-gritty. Will it be Total Domination or GA mode? It would seem GA mode would put us in a Roleplay type of mood and stop some of the potential steamrollering Ignoramus was refering too. In the end I have no objections to either.

ERA? Early, High or Late? Or doesnt matter?

Are we going to dictate a skill restriction. Easy, Normal, Hard, Expert? If we insist on Expert, it'll take me a bit longer, I really have to concentrate on that setting in order to do well. Although Hard is not a problem in the concentration dept.

I am a firm believer of being able to Pick your own faction, but I think it would suck for our audience if we picked the same one. Which faction were you thinking about using?

[Prussian1]

Are we considering ship-building buildings a no no?

I wouldn't think so on a technicality that ship building is an economic activity

And what about the cannon foundry stuff late game? That technically should be added in as well. ?

That technicality being?

Will it be Total Domination or GA mode? It would seem GA mode would put us in a Roleplay type of mood and stop some of the potential steamrollering Ignoramus was refering too.

Agreed

ERA? Early, High or Late? Or doesnt matter?

My opinion is Early and High. By the Late period, you would be seeing National Armies start to emerge. So what if you played with only mercs in early and high, but could start fielding national armies in late? It would give you a reason to build those pesky military buildings so you didn't get stuck with vanilla spearmen in the 15th century.

Are we going to dictate a skill restriction. Easy, Normal, Hard, Expert?

I think this is personal preference . .

[Sensei Warrior]

I am going to be very close to my comp very soon, so here's what I've got so far. I am going to start a new campaign to try out the merc thing. Its going to be The English-Early-Hard-GA-MTW:VI 2.01. I'll be towing the line with the following:

No military buildings of any kind. Buildings associated with Ship-building is the only exception, since it is reasonable that ships really are more of an economic activity.

Only troops that can be 'built' will come from forts, and the inevitable gain of royalty troops.

There will be Crusading since its a GA goal.

There will be unabashed use of non-military units (assassins, inquisitors, emissaries, and etc).

I'll see what I can do about keeping everyone posted.

[macsen rufus]

I hadn't thought about cannon foundries! I've been stuck in the Bronze Age so long I'd totally forgotten about ships that need cannons

Definitely we will require ships, as pointed out above, they are an economic element, as well as a logistical one. I could imagine playing "Sicily, no ships" would be a bit tough You'd have to wait til you could bribe a mainland army...

I'd personally go with the mercs straight through all eras, even in Late, just to maintain the flavour of the game.

As for Crusades and Jihads, I tend to play the "one active, one spare marker" rule in my campaigns, and I think that should help to keep it sensible. One major issue with mercs is the support costs, and having multiple Crusades/Jihads could be bit of a financial exploit.

Also, the AI factions will have to tech up to produce troops, whereas the "Mercenary human" player can destroy all their buildings for profit. I wonder whether this would prove too much of a disadvantage to the AI?

Agreed the difficulty level is a choice for individual players, as in any other campaign. And also agreed on the use of agents, burn, stick and bribe away! I think a close look at the build_prod file to check out buildings' "mercenary magnetism" may help this campaign along as well

I'm undecided on the GA/Conquest mode, as I personally rarely play in GA (but then I mostly play mods where it isn't an option , that and I forget it's an option when loading a new campaign.)

So, I might have a go from the opposite corner of the map, Egypt or Turkey, although Danes could be fun as well (Viking thralls from the fort ) My first thought was the English, but I'll happily await Sensei's experiences on that front.

[Sensei Warrior]

OK, well I started the campaign and have gone through to 1097. Its been a bit of a slow slog through. I'm not as far along as I like to be at this point, but my kids underfoot have distracted me from some key moves.

Anyways, I started a typical opening bid by bribing Wales, attacking Scotland with my 2nd heir (the first one made me nervous, he appeared with the Secret Perversions Vice), and then moving my starting troops towards Flanders. I have left the French alone for the moment, and allied with the Spanish, the Agonese, and HRE.

There are inns in every Provence I own. Right now thats all the starting ones plus Wales and Scotland. The only units I have produced thus far are Peasants as promised. I used the bribed units from Wales and other starting units to attack Scotland.

I did destroy all the starting military buildings in my provences, even though there weren't that many. The one that had me nervous was the horse breeder that produces Hobilars in Aquitaine.

Another thing that made me a bit nervous was the fact that there were a number of years that went by in the beginning that didn't have any Mercs at all. None. For the first 5-9 years I had zero Mercs in my Inns (must have been the bad beer and ugly women ). I don't know if that was just my game, or it takes the comp awhile to 'stock' them or what.

As of 1097 an assortment of troops can be bought. There was 1 Spearmen, 1 Armored Spearmen, 1 Feudal Sergeant, 1 Kwazarim Cavalry, 1 Mounted Sergeant, and a couple more that didnt catch my eye. Obviously I was scanning the troops for Spear types to protect my vast hordes of Archers, and Cavalry. Cavalry and Melee troops are in short supply for me right now.

French smack down is the next order of business, and I'll keep everyone posted.

EDIT:
To:macsen rufus
Good I figured you might have forgotten about the Foundries being needed for some ships. Of course this will give some units, but I'll just try and stay away from them.

Agreed. Since the game I started is a GA game, I'm sure I'll be playing in late. I'll use whatever Mercs I can access the whole way through the game.

Agreed, I usually Crusade my way across N. Africa and the such. This game I plan on using Crusades on my GA goals. After that, I plan on using them sparingly if at all.

I figure the whole GA/TD decision is a personal thing. I do GAs rarely, but usually have fun when I do. I'd say go with what you're comfortable with, you running a TD game might give another perspective anyways.

Muwahaha ... AHEM, I mean, I am very sorry to steal the English from ya. The last couple of posts from you I remember reading you were referring to Muslim Factions, I just hoped you liked playing them more.

/END EDIT

Sorry for the lengthy post, lots of ground to cover.

[macsen rufus]

Well, despite thinking I'll try this after I'd got more of my modding out of the way, I did actually fire up a Turkish/Early/Hard GA campaign when I got home from work, and have played through to around 1107AD.

Another thing that made me a bit nervous was the fact that there were a number of years that went by in the beginning that didn't have any Mercs at all. None. For the first 5-9 years I had zero Mercs in my Inns (must have been the bad beer and ugly women ).

That's because they're all hanging out with Hassan i Sabah, the Old Man of the Mountains, in Syria, a-toking and a-poking with his hookahs and hookers I had way more mercs available than I could afford to hire, so snaffled up a few Druzhina and Faris units, plus a couple of Bulgarian Brigands and armoured spears and kicked the Egyptians out of Antioch and Tripoli (GA homeland for me), during which I managed to accidentally drop their sultan on his head and wiped out the faction. They re-emerged pretty quickly, and left me having to regain Tripoli by jihad, for an extra couple of points. The jihad was pretty poor at that stage of the game, mostly catapults and peasants.... but it did at least give me some reasonable governor candidates. But you can't expect a lot with zeal pootling along at 20%.

I also (re)discovered that down that way CAMELS are a fort-trained unit as well

To be honest, though, when your armies are mostly merc, it doesn't make a huge difference which faction you play, so I don't feel deeply deprived. Generally I quite like horse-archer factions, but as I'm buying rather than training, it seems ... strange

I'm now the richest faction, and my sultan gained "Steward" virtue, then promptly died - and left the sultanate to his "straight-zeroes" elder son - I didn't prune the vine in time, I'm afraid, the vintage is ruined Of course, being richest only applies on one side of the ledger - the income. Despite massive farm-building programmes, my outgoings are pretty high, too.

Anyway, I'm poised to push on towards Egypt (I think I snapped up Palestine before I quit last night...), then I shall have to turn my attention to the Purple Ones on the northern border, as they are the main threat on the GA points. If I can kick them out of Asia Minor, they'll suffer a huge hit. I'm currently one point ahead thanks to the jihad

[Martok]

Interesting results so far, guys. One question I have for you: Are you noticing a trend as far as which provinces the mercs appear in? Or are they pretty evenly spread thus far?

I also (re)discovered that down that way CAMELS are a fort-trained unit as well

....

Nah, too easy.

[Sensei Warrior]

Update and Answers:

I am in the Early 1100s right now. Me and my Merc army have been steadily gaining ground in Europe while we addressed the French issue. The French are now a Footnote in the Annals of History, and I own all French lands except for Toulouse (the Italians took that), and Champagne (which went rebel and I decided to leave alone for a bit. The Spanish border me to the South who for the moment seem to be strong allies. HRE and the Italians border me to the East. I am allied to the Italians, but not allied to HRE (they decided to back the French).

On the finance front, its alot of easy come easy go, which seems to be the same with macsen. I'm not the richest but do have a large income. Course as soon as I get some money I lay it down on money improvements. I've been able to focus on building up Agriculture and started getting some trade. I have 1 ship producing provence, and am trying to get 2 more to start churning out ships.

Right now my focus is on the precious Crusading Goals. I'm going to be shoring up expenses during my next push, trim the fat from the budget, and press out the ships to get to those GA goals.

I am thinking of sneaking into macsen's game and ing his hookas and ing his hookers. The Mercs haven't been as free flowing as I would have liked. I've gotten enough to 'git r dun', but I certainly dont have as many as macsen seems to have.

I haven't really been paying attention to where the troops are coming from, but I definately got quite a few from Normandy during this push. They definately are more prevalent where my provences border another faction's provence. I'll keep track of it, and give a more definative answer next time.

The types of merc troops available for purchase has almost solely been Cav and Spear types. Virtually no melee troops have been available for purchase. So far I've been getting by with Druzina Cav. Gotta love those guys. I'm still thinking I might have to shore up my melee units with Highland Clansmen. I am still holding off of making them for the moment. I'm goin to give the game as long as I can to produce some melee troops before I resort to making them.

That's it for now. I keep you guys in the loop.

[macsen rufus]

So far Syria is my big merc recruiting ground, and the odd unit or two pops up in Armenia. I've seen - but not necessarily been able to hire - armoured spearmen, jinettes, hobbies, Druzhina, Faris, FMAA, Bulg Brigands, Turc horse, archers, Italian Inf, vanilla spears, Feudal sergeants, catapults, Rus spears, trebuchet (1 only - lost it in a siege ), horse archers, Arab infantry, militia sergeants.

I know from previous experience thouigh that mercs will tend to congregate at your front line. Hence as Syria borders Egyptian territory where I am at war, it has more mercs than Armenia which borders neutral Byz lands. The presence of a port should help too, as that has a mercenary magnetism factor.

@ Martok, well, I've kept my camel training down to two units, mostly in preparation for the desert war - as you've probably noticed, most of my mercs have been quite heavily armoured for this stage of the game, so putting together a desert army is going a bit slowly.

I haven't got any ships in the water yet, but building up Antioch for that next. I've already got my merchant running, and he's handing over 132fl in tax per year, so by the time I multiply that by a few ports I should be rolling in it

[Sensei Warrior]

macsen rufus and I are like duelling banjos in this thread. Next push is in so here we go.

Its 1133 and a whole heck of alot has happened. For starters, the French reemerged. Caught me off guard at first so lots of down and dirty battles. They reappeared in Champagne, the French Porvence that rebelled earlier in the game. During that time the Spanish have decided to attack as well, the traitorous dogs. They are really putting the screws to me, but I think I'll be able to ford through that as well. The Italians have decided to take a whack at my shipping lanes as well, but some lucky sea battles for me have the Italians licking their wounds.

I have a Crusade marker all ready to go and am hoovering up my still meager Merc supply. Maybe I shouldn't say that, there was alot of fighting going on during this push so it wasn't like they weren't being used. Anyways, I'm staged to Crusade to Palestine, my Crusading Objectives being my next goal.

Moneywise I am the richest. I have a good amount coming in, and a large amount going out to keep the Mercs well paid.

I have been getting the same variety of Mercs as macsen so nothing different there. Mercs almost always proc on my border states. An occassional Port city away from the front may have 1 every once in awhile but not often. It also seems that my Provences that border a faction I am at war with produce a good deal more Mercs then ones that just border another faction. When the French attacked me, Flanders started to have large amounts of Mercs, about double what they usually did. When Spain back doored me, Aquitaine's Merc supply doubled as well.

Another thing that I noticed that was interesting was when HRE moved a Crusade through my lands. The year after the Crusade passed through the Provence, I had 8-9 units of troops available in that Provence but the units had very few men in the unit, (like a unit of Archers with 3men). I also noticed when I disbanded a unit of Longbowmen (they only had 3 men left in the unit) the next year that unit was available (with the same 3 men, also the same general) as a unit of Mercs. The year after that they disappeared.

Complaint time. What a pain in the hoop Mercs are. You cant do anything with them. I can't merge 2 units together to get a full unit or anything. I have a ton of units at 1/2 to 1/3 full. I'm not sure if I should disband them or what. Right now they are border guards. I was goin to try and replace them when full Merc units became available, but everyone started English hatin so they were sent on the defense.

Well thats it for now, I'm sure this weekend I'm gonna have alot more to tell so see you guys then.

[Martok]

Appreciate hearing your results, guys. Looking forward to hearing more next week.

I also noticed when I disbanded a unit of Longbowmen (they only had 3 men left in the unit) the next year that unit was available (with the same 3 men, also the same general) as a unit of Mercs. The year after that they disappeared.

I'd noticed that early on when I first started playing the game. If you disband regular units, they're likely to reappear as mercs. I think it's a nice touch, actually.