Koinon Hellenon unit roster

[gran_guitarra]

Hey, guys.
I wanted to ask about adding a unit to the Koinon Hellenon.


I'm not sure about the name, though I've read a novel where they are called Skiritai, and have seen them mentioned a couple of times in historical texts.

Basically they were the most elite Spartan warriors. They were equipped and trained similarly, but their armor was un-shined to aid in stealth. They functioned as the Spartan Secret Police and battlefield assassins. Performing tasks from scouting and sabotage to assassinating rebel leaders and generals to crush uprisings and defeat armies without actually fighting.

They were used, I've heard, in the battle of Thermopylae to try to assassinate Xerxes, at which they nearly succeded.
They were mostly used to keep the Helots in line by eliminating outspoken leaders.

Personally I think that they would be a very cool unit to add, with the ability to hid nearly anywhere and ambush generals and other units. Give them swords and a javelin or two, along with really great stats, and they'd be good to go. This would add some difference to the KH line-up and battle strategies (more than either mass Heavy Spearmen/Phalanx with auxiliary units (such as archers and crappy Greek Noble Cavalry).)

[NeoSpartan]

I think you mean the Kryptea (sp) but that was usually young spartans who were about to finish their training.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Even given a generous description, what you describe is not a battlefield unit.

[antisocialmunky]

Weren't they just a bunch of thugs that killed Helots?

[dbarger58]

i have an off topic question, but this is a good place for it, why was the korithian hoplit removed from the roster, thanks

[gran_guitarra]

NO, they were the most elite Spartans in the force.
They functioned as battlefield assassins, ambushers, elite uber assault units, and just general badasses.
They basically wrought havoc on and off the field of battle. During Thermopylae they were used to try and assassinate Xerxes, and nearly succeeded.
I've read about them in various novels and a couple of history texts.
I'm not entirely sure about their equipment, though I think they might have used lamellar (lighter than bronze breastplate), and served to break up skirmishers during battle, as well as assault the flanks.
They were the most elite of all the Spartans, even superior to the 300 of the Kings Knights.

Personally I think that they would make a good addition, though they would have to be incredibly expensive to keep players from spamming them (even to the extent of Spartiatai). I still think they'd make a good addition.

[Sarcasm]

Sources?

[paullus]

No. They're mentioned, as far as I know, in only a few historical texts (Thucydides, the battle of Mantinea, in the Peloponnesian War, and a couple of times in Xenophon), and we have no indication that they existed as a specific unit in the Hellenistic period. Also, almost all of the specific information you're providing has been fabricated by 'historical' novelists. We didn't craft our unit lists from Pressfield novels (though honestly, the stuff you're saying is far crazier than anything I recall from Gates of Fire).

Here's what we actually know: they fought on the left flank of the hoplite phalanx, they were from a subject mountain population (or else those people gave the name to the unit which had at some time been drawn from their people), and they handled some scouting type duties. We get several detailed lineups of Spartan armies in the Hellenistic period, and never hear about skiritai. Most likely, if the population survived the wars of the 4th century, they were among the first perioikoi granted homoioi status as the Spartan population dwindled.

If you really want to have them, though, just find yourself some highly-trained peltastai and use them as "skiritai" in your Spartan king's army. Heck, make an AAR out of reconstituting an old-school Spartan war machine.

[gran_guitarra]

I never said that their name was Skiritai, only that I'd seen a reference (In gates of fire), to something that sounded similar to it called by that name.

The book I learned about them from is called "The Spartans", though the name of the author escapes me at the moment (it will be about a week before I can post it, since that's in my parents home, and I'm not driving 2.5 hours just to tell you guys a title). It details the rise and fall of the Spartan Empire from pre-Lycurgan times (of which there is very very little), to the Lycurgan era, and the conquest of Sparta by Rome.

What I am talking about is the Spartan Secret Police (cannot remember the name at the moment). Their job was to keep the Helots and subject polis in line by assassinating any leaders with anti-Spartan tendencies. They were trained to a level that made even the Spartiatai look un-bad***.
In times of great crisis, such as the battle of Thermopylae, they could be employed to assassinate enemy commanders and sabotage their supplies and weapons. They nearly succeeded in assassinating Xerxes on the third day of the battle of Thermopylae (which I've read (the book Thermopylae, battle for the West) lasted about a week. This is also supported by the History Channel, saying that Xerxes was held up for two weeks (which makes sense if you take into consideration that he ordered 3/4 of his dead soldiers buried so that the sailors could be shown the battleground without losing too much morale).
They are, to my knowledge, the most obscure and unknown about branch of the "Spartan Military" (in their case it does necessitate the comas), and those are the only concrete mentions of them I've read.

I understand if they are not included, and that the chances of this actually existing and the EB team missing it are very slim, but I just thought I'd post it.

[NeoSpartan]

i have an off topic question, but this is a good place for it, why was the korithian hoplit removed from the roster, thanks

The model was used to make the Clasical Hoplite, and due to some engine restrictions the EB team could keep the Korinthian hoplite. Something about the limits of models per faction I think was the issue.... but I ain't 100% sure...

[paullus]

What I am talking about is the Spartan Secret Police (cannot remember the name at the moment). Their job was to keep the Helots and subject polis in line by assassinating any leaders with anti-Spartan tendencies. They were trained to a level that made even the Spartiatai look un-bad***.
In times of great crisis, such as the battle of Thermopylae, they could be employed to assassinate enemy commanders and sabotage their supplies and weapons. They nearly succeeded in assassinating Xerxes on the third day of the battle of Thermopylae (which I've read (the book Thermopylae, battle for the West) lasted about a week. This is also supported by the History Channel, saying that Xerxes was held up for two weeks (which makes sense if you take into consideration that he ordered 3/4 of his dead soldiers buried so that the sailors could be shown the battleground without losing too much morale).
They are, to my knowledge, the most obscure and unknown about branch of the "Spartan Military" (in their case it does necessitate the comas), and those are the only concrete mentions of them I've read.

The attack on Xerxes is very likely apocryphal, but its been picked up by just about anyone who writes a popular history of the Spartans or the Persian Wars, all of whom generally pale in comparison to the ridiculous things which are sometimes featured on History Channel specials, the quality of which can vary wildly.

Anyway, you're referring to the Krypteia, which was not a super-trained force of ubermen, and we have in fact previewed that in the next build it is possible for your KH fm's who go through the Agoge (and excell in it) to get a trait for having participated in the Krypteia. There would be no point in making such a battlefield unit--as best we can tell, they didn't participate in battles or even in the common messes, and they certainly are never identified as the agents in the dubious story of the attack on Xerxes.

[gran_guitarra]

All right. That's cool. I can't wait to know what that trait is.

From the attack on Xerxes:

What I've heard is this, Leonidas chose the thirty best of the Guard of the King. He sent these warriors to assassinate Xerxes. They managed to sneak into the camp and got near the King's tent when they were located by one of Xerxes's guard. They sounded the alarm and the Spartan's rushed to kill the Persian King. One of them throws his spear but misses in the dark. Another tries to stab him and ends up killing an Immortal. Shortly after this the Immortals retreat Xerxes and begin to regroup.
At this point the Spartans regroup and retreat back to the Greek camp without having killed Xerxes. Personally I'd rather believe that there were guys gutsy enough to do this, and wonder what would have happened if they'd succeeded.

[bovi]

This is fairly represented by assassins though, isn't it?

[mAIOR]

The attempt on Xerxes life was never proved. It's a possibility. I heard a Portuguese historian saying that he didn't know if it really happened but, if we look at Spartans from that time, it seems a fair assumption they atempted. I never read or heard anything as detailed as you describe exept in Gates of fire so, if you could post your sources please I'd apretiate.


Cheers...

[gran_guitarra]

Source:
random discussion on Thermopylae between my dad, uncle, and me. My dad said he heard it from a history teacher in the faculty at the university he works.

Still, makes a sweet story, don't ya think? Especially if developed well.

[Lysander13]

Right....but hasn't Pressfield already done so in Gates of Fire?

[geala]

You could assassinate the enemy leader with an assassin.

If the story about the attempted assassination of Xerxes were true (which is highly doubtful) no members of the krypteia were used but hoplites from the 300 Spartans. You can already send Spartan hoplites now against the enemy leader, they are nasty troops.

Wether the krypteia existed or was just one of the horror stories about the Spartans is doubtful. If they existed the murdering of the helots took place in Lakedaimonia and Messenia during special times, but not during war against other states.

I trust faithfully in the EB team not to create anything similar in the game. A trait would be okay and fun.

[Anastasios Helios]

I like the sound of these units, but if they were to be included, it would only be fair to bring back the arcanii (gasps) for the Romanioi...and no one wants that.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I've heard this theory before, in particular the attempt of Xerxes' life; While I cannot claim monopoly on historical truth, it's an extremely unlikely scenario given the details of the so-called "negotiation phase" and the actual "battle-phase". It doesn't make sense that while Xerxes attempts to find a way to flank the Spartans through what appears to be a goat herder's trail, all the while the Spartans manage to sneak past... Or more unlikely attempt an assassination from the front. It also does not conform to the Spartan philosophy of the battle itself.

Honestly speaking, those who do propagate for this theory have just found another way of dismissing the Persian military machine as an incompetent massed levy. What better way is there to emphasize this by claiming that a Spartan assassin almost got his spear (See my eyes rolling? A spear?) to hit Xerxes but instead hits an Immortal...

About as entertaining as it is to read the disastrous propaganda machine gone awry written by Ctesias of Cnidus <_<