Apache units dont look like Apache...

[kungfuserge]

This is an Apache Indian


.....I don't understand those units in the American campaign that looks more like Mayan or Aztec ....

[Temujin]

A 19th century Apache most likely.

Do you have any pictures of 16th century Apaches? No?

[kungfuserge]

True I don't have a picture of the appache in the XVI century ; but I though they weren't looking like this (mostly with hairs like Huron). For what I have read they didn't shave their hairs
And not using feather Big Chief hairdo like the Northern tribes

[Fate]

Temujin has a point, compare a 19th century, well i was gonna say englishman, but ANYONE, with a 16th century ... also anyone :P

Theres bound to be a huge difference!

[rebelscum]

16th century apache tribesman .. leather, fur, feathers, peace pipe, tomahawk.
21st century apache tribesman .. leather, jeans, baseball cap, malboro light, rolled up newspaper.

[Ulstan]

We have no photographs of 16th century Apache Indians.

Might as well take a photo of a frenchman in the 1800's and then complain that the french soldiers in game don't look like that :p

[Mr Frost]

...Theres bound to be a huge difference!

No there is not .
Aside from the fact that many tribal societies maintain the same tastes and fashions in dress for thousands of years , your assumption doesn't consider when in the 19th Century that picture was made , whether it was from a live model or composed from descriptions and/or older paintings and the Apaches were among the last native nation to be subdued in the United States so they may likely have still clung to traditional modes of dress {typical of peoples in war} up to the time that picture was made .

...compare a 19th century, well i was gonna say englishman, but ANYONE, with a 16th century ...

A 19th Century Australian Aborigonal in the Heart of the country looked , as best as archeology can ascertain , the largely same as a 16th century B.C. member of the same tribe and status .








You don't know , you assume .

[Cadwallon]

Yes but, a 19th Century Koori or Murri (Aboriginal) had had no, or little contact with Europeans.

Apache had had ongoing contact with Spanish and Mexicans for over 300 years - during which they adopted guns, horses and regularly traded cloth and foodstuffs with and intermarried with Europeans and other tribes.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

This is an Apache Indian


.....I don't understand those units in the American campaign that looks more like Mayan or Aztec ....

nope: This is an Apache Indian (with some friends)

[Gorm]

And when you see some of the settlements during a battle, one often sees totem poles. These are characteristic of Pacific Northwest peoples, not anywhere else.

[icek]

What kind of apachean units can use level1 armor that is given by one of their tipi ?

[joe4iz]

I'd have to say that they would have been better calling them the Iroquois. That's what they look like.

[Cadwallon]

I think the point is that the Apacheans don't necessarily represent JUST the Apache that we know from their 19th Century confrontations with the United States, but more the Apachean Confederacy - if you look at the names of your generals, they often refer to sub-tribes within the Confederation. In conquest, they absorb the Comanche, Navajo and other famous Amerindian tribes.

I think its simplistic to just think of them as Apache - and they would have been much more alien looking (that is, to European sensibilities) prior to contact with Europeans. Even genetically, from 300 years of confrontation and mingling with other tribes and even the Spanish, they would have physically looked different.

[joe4iz]

I am just curious though, did any of the Confederation sport mohawks? I have no idea, but that was what I based my answer on. Please correct me as my wife hasn't done that today, and I am due for one.

[Cadwallon]

Got this quote from Wikipedia about the early apache in the 16th Century..

"After seventeen days of travel, I came upon a rancheria of the Indians who follow these cattle (bison). These natives are called Querechos. They do not cultivate the land, but eat raw meat and drink the blood of the cattle they kill. They dress in the skins of the cattle, with which all the people in this land clothe themselves, and they have very well-constructed tents, made with tanned and greased cowhides, in which they live and which they take along as they follow the cattle. They have dogs which they load to carry their tents, poles, and belongings. (ref: Hammond and Rey.) "

So quite a bit different from the 19th century representation! We get deluged with American impressions of the Amerindians/Native Americans. The fact that the Spanish and Mexicans had been dealing with them for 300 years longer is hardly remarked upon.

[joe4iz]

I think the point is that the Apacheans don't necessarily represent JUST the Apache that we know from their 19th Century confrontations with the United States, but more the Apachean Confederacy - if you look at the names of your generals, they often refer to sub-tribes within the Confederation. In conquest, they absorb the Comanche, Navajo and other famous Amerindian tribes.

I think its simplistic to just think of them as Apache - and they would have been much more alien looking (that is, to European sensibilities) prior to contact with Europeans. Even genetically, from 300 years of confrontation and mingling with other tribes and even the Spanish, they would have physically looked different.

Yes, but some of the early Spanish encounters with the indians of the American Southwest were written by clergy who had returned from a rather unsuccessful attempt to find El Dorado. They also tried to "convert" the "savages" which did not end well.

The clothing probably would not have changed that much due to the available resources necessary to make clothing and or the climate etc etc. I am just throwing that out there. I did like playing as the Apachean Nation in the game. NO MERCHANTS! no real economy... At first, I was not pumping out enough units as I was afraid I would go broke. Then I found they could go on the warpath and that was almost all I did every chance I could.

[icek]

Why no one mention that in this campaign we hear a fallout 2 music in strategic map

[kungfuserge]

A little History ............

The word Apache is believed to be derived from a Zuni word meaning "enemy".
The Apache Indians are divided into six sub-tribes
Bedonkohe....Be-don-ko-he
Chieahen....Chi-e-a-hen
Chihenne....Chi-hen-ne, (Ojo Caliente), (Hot Springs) Apaches
Chokonen....Cho-kon-en, Chiricahua Apache
Nedni....Nendi
White Mountain Apache

The Apache people (including the Navajo) came from the Far North to settle the Plains and Southwest around A.D. 850.
They settled in three desert regions, the Great Basin, the Sonoran, and the Chihuachuan.
The Navajo are not part of the Apache nation. They are their own honored nation. They only share the Athabscan language with the Apache.
The Apache speak the Athabscan language,
which originated in their former homeland of
northwestern Canada.


These distinct groups can be organized by dialects:
The Western Apache (Coyotero) traditionally occupied most of eastern Arizona and included the White Mountain, Cibuecue, San Carlos, and Northern and Southern Tonto bands. San Carlos, Aravaipa, White Mountain, Northern Tonto, Southern Tonto, and Cibecue in Arizona, Chiricahua and Mimbreno in Arizona and New Mexico, Mescalero (Faraon) in New Mexico and Mexico, Jicarilla (Tinde) in New Mexico and Colorado, Kiowa-Apache (Gataka) in Oklahoma, and Lipan in Texas and Mexico. Western Apache (Coyotero), Eastern Arizona.


They exchanged buffalo hides, tallow and meat, bones that could be worked into needles and scrapers for hides, and salt from the desert with the Pueblos for pottery, cotton, blankets, turquoise, corn and other goods. But at times they simply saw what they wanted and took it. They became known among the Pueblo villages by another name, Apachu, "the enemy".

The Apache's guerrilla war tactics came naturally and were unsurpassed. The name Apache struck fear into the hearts of Pueblo tribes, and in later years the Spanish, Mexican, and Anglo-American settlers, which they raided for food, and livestock.
The Apache and the Pueblos managed to maintain generally peaceful relations. But the arrival of the Spaniards changed everything. A source of friction was the activity of Spanish slave traders, who hunted down captives to serve as labor in the silver mines of Chihuahua in northern Mexico. The Apache, in turn, raided Spanish settlements to seize cattle, horses, firearms, and captives of their own.
The prowess of the Apache in battle became legend. It was said that an Apache warrior could run 50 miles without stopping and travel more swiftly than a troop of mounted soldiers.

The Apache saw themselves differently, they faced constant struggle to survive. When they raided a village, they did so from pure necessity, to provide corn for their families when game was scarce. Most of the time they went their own way, moving from camp to camp in pursuit of deer and buffalo, collecting roots and berries, sometimes planting seeds that they later returned to harvest.
They set up their camps on the outskirts of the pueblos. They dressed in animal skins, used dogs as pack animals, and pitched tent like dwellings made of brush or hide, called wikiups. The wickiup was the most common shelter of the Apache. The dome shaped lodge was constructed of wood poles covered with brush, grass, or reed mats. It contained a fire pit and a smoke hole for a chimney. The Jicarillas and Kiowa-Apaches, which roamed the Plains, used buffalo hide tepees. The basic shelter of the Chiricahua was the domeshaped wickiup made of brush.

The Apache regarded coyotes, insects, and birds as having been human beings. The human race, then, but following in the tracks of those who have gone before.
The Apache lived in extended family groups, all loosely related through the female line. (Matriarcial).... Each group operated independently under a respected family leader....settling its own disputes, answering to no higher human authority.
The main exception to this occurred during wartime, when neighboring groups banded together to fight a common enemy. Unlike ordinary raiding, where the main object was to acquire food and possessions,war meant lethal business. An act of vengeance for the deaths of band members in earlier raids or battles.
Leaders of the local family groups would meet in council to elect a war chief, who led the campaign. But if any one group preferred to follow its own war chief, it was free to do so.
Apache bands that roamed the same area admitted to a loose cultural kinship. The Jicarilla of northeastern New Mexico hunted buffalo in the plains, planted corn in the mountains. The Mescalero to the south were hunter-gatherers who developed an appetite for the roasted heads of wild mescal plants. The Chiricahua, fiercest of all tribal groups, raided along the Mexican border. The more peaceble Western Apache of Arizona spent part of each year farming. Two other tribal divisions, the Lipan and Kiowa-Apache, lived as plainsmen in western Kansas and Texas.
A strict code of conduct governed Apache life, based on strong family loyalties. Each Apache group was composed of extended families or clans. Basic social, economic, and political units based on female inherited leadership. The most important bond led from an Apache mother to her children and on to her children. Marriage within one's own clan is forbidden. When the son married his obligations from then on were to his mother-in-law's family.

Beyond this code of propriety and family obligations, the Apache shared a rich oral history of myths and legends and a legacy of intense religious devotion that touched virtually every aspect of their lives.
Medicine Men presided over religious ceremonies. They believed in many spirit beings. Usen, the Giver of Life, the most powerful of them all. The Gans, or Mountain Spirits, were especially important in Apache ceremonies. Males garbed themselves in elaborate costumes to impersonate the Gans in ritual dance, wearing kilts, black masks, tall wooden-slat head-dresses, and body paint carrying wooden swords.
The Mescalero band consisted of followers and a headman. They had no formal leader such as a tribal chief, or council, nor a decision making process. The core of the band was a "relative group", predominantly, but not necessarily, kinsmen. Named by the Spanish for the mescal cactus the Apaches used for food, drink, and fiber.
One author's characterization of the Mescalero Apache people of the past is as follows: They moved freely, wintering on the Rio Grande or farther south, ranging the buffalo plains in the summer, always following the sun and the food supply. They owned nothing and everything. They did as they pleased and bowed to no man. Their women were chaste. Their leaders kept their promises. They were mighty warriors who depended on success in raiding for wealth and honor. To their families they were kind and gentle, but they could be unbelievably cruel to their enemies--fierce and revengeful when they felt that they had been betrayed. (Sonnichsen 1958:4)
The Apaches were nomadic hunter-gatherers. They chased any wild game located within their territory, especially deer and rabbits. When necessary, they lived off the land by gathering wild berries, roots, cactus fruit and seeds of the mesquite tree. They planted some corn, beans, and squash as crops. They were extremely hardy prior to the arrival of European diseases, and could live practically naked in zero temperature.
Many Apache bands were so influenced by the tribes they came into contact that they took on many of their customs and practices. Western Apaches living near the Pueblo Indians became farmers. Jicarilla Apaches pursued the great buffalo herds like other Plains Indians, mounted on horses they acquired through raids on the Spanish and Pueblos in the late 1600's. Kiowa-Apaches became more like the Kiowa, a Plains tribe, than their own Apache kin. The Lopans raised dogs for meat as many Mexican tribes to their south.
In 1871 , the original White Mountain Reservation was established. It contained today's Fort Apache and San Carlos reservations. In 1897, the land was divided into two independent reservations.

Unfortunately I didn't find any Pics of drawings showing Apaches in the XVI century