Beating Horse Archers

[Sir Losealot]

I've been lurking around this forum for a while now and I've really enjoyed your posts. First question for you. How do you beat a fast horse archer force (Turks) with a slower army (England)? I know how to not lose the battle using archers and cavalry, but then how do I finish off any remaining HA? Nothing is fast enough to catch them and if they don't want to come fight, what do you do?
I usually end up with several turk HA units running around that I try to corner one at a time using 2-3 cav units. If I don't have cav, I don't know what to do. Delivering the coup de grace becomes an irritating process.
Any ideas?

[The Outsider]

well u can use light cavalary from different sides and get them cornered in the end, or u can use infantry archers which are great at destroying horses especially unarmoured ones like HA.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If you're playing as England, Longbowmen with stakes ar the perfect anti-HA troops.

[Doug-Thompson]

Yeah about longbows, but the question is not how to merely defeat them, but how to finish them off after you've whittled them down.

Nothing will do but fast cavalry for that, which may require hiring some mercenaries.

Hopefully, somebody will disagree with that. Discussion would be interesting.

[Nikos_Rouvelas]

Why don't you train Hobilars/ They're usually fast enough to catch HA's

[Czar Alexsandr]

If you're out in that are, Turkey, Anatolia, then you should be able to buy Alan Cavalry mercenaries (They have the trait fast moving and a very good cavalry unit despite being light.) I believe the Albanian cavarly could work to but I'm not certain where you'd buy that. In the Steppe provinces you could buy fast moving (but weak) Cuman Horse archers.

Without hiring mercenaries I reccomend trapping them in a corner of the map. Strech out your forces and try to trap them by encircling them. If you can get the right, left, and center to keep closing on them you'll catch them. Archers, esspecially Longbowmen, are good against horse archers. Let them whittle them down to nothing if you can. Hope this is helpful. Being a cavalry man, particullarily a missle cavalry man I've come to learn their strengths and weaknesses. (Now if anyone can find a good way to counter Polish Nobles... I'm all ears.)

[Doug-Thompson]

Why don't you train Hobilars/ They're usually fast enough to catch HA's

Hobilars are not particularly fast and are not armored well. They'd be shot to pieces -- if the HA have any arrows left, and their ammo's been notably reduced.

[TheLastPrivate]

alan light cavalry is my answer. decent charge, good speed/stamina...

just try to kill as many as possible with your own missles because chasing them is a rather costly affair.

[Guru]

I would not recommend hobilars. They're among the worst cavalry units in the game. They are not fast (mailed knights' speed), they lack armour and morale. Some horse archers laugh at them in melee... If you wish to catch HAs you want some Alan light cavalry. Once your Alan have engaged in melee send in your knights and then withdraw the Alan from melee. Playing as England, your own cavalry options are pretty limited. Basic mailed knights are suitable for the job. They are as fast as Sipahis, for example, and have enough staying power. Demi lancers are pretty much like mailed knights. I admit I've never used them in campaign.
I like to chase HAs down with "tanks". Utterly, extremely armoured heavy cavalry, immune to those ridiculous arrows. Chase them around and let them empty their supply of arrows on your iron men. When they run out of arrows and stop to think what to do next...

- Guru

[uruk-hai]

i have to agree with all the others light cavalry would be the best way to go.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The only fast cavalry that any faction can recruit are Border Horse (Scotland), Stradiots (Venice), and two more I can't remember. You're best to just hire Alan Mercenary Cavalry, or use you're own horse archers. Or even better javelin cavalry.

[TheImp]

Usually i use the "between Hammer and Anvil" strategy with HA units. U need two heavy cavalry units. Send one circling around the enemy while the other goes for a charge on the HA. As the HA, faster, tries to stay away from my heavy cav, the other one cuts its escape. Hard to manage but deadly.

[Thurak]

Hey thelmp.
Perhaps you should delete the very last word of your signature. There are still people reading the Song of Ice and Fire. Besides you should never be too sure about anything that isn't 100% sure in those books ;)

Sorry for beeing offtopic, but that signature is very much a spoiler...

[Shahed]

I've been lurking around this forum for a while now and I've really enjoyed your posts. First question for you. How do you beat a fast horse archer force (Turks) with a slower army (England)? I know how to not lose the battle using archers and cavalry, but then how do I finish off any remaining HA? Nothing is fast enough to catch them and if they don't want to come fight, what do you do?
I usually end up with several turk HA units running around that I try to corner one at a time using 2-3 cav units. If I don't have cav, I don't know what to do. Delivering the coup de grace becomes an irritating process.
Any ideas?

I've have'nt any direct recommendations that have'nt been covered in one way or another. Only thing I can say is focus on the HAs first with your missile fire and start a wide encirclement with your own cavalry early in the battle.

[antisocialmunky]

I observed that artillery weapons(taller the better - trebs - or wider the better -mangs) block missiles quite well in one of my battles. I'm not 100% sure but decoying a siege engine or two against one or two HA may be a viable way of making them waste arrows. Unorthodoxed though.

[ixidor]

Sometimes, when i use nations how rely on heavy cavalry and heavy infantry I use this strategy to fight the mongols: put the hourse archers firing at your heavy infantry, they will take some casualties but with a good shield and armor the casualties can be minimized. Now, use your heavy cavalry to turn around the enemies' fast cavalry. They will obviously outrun your heavy cavalry, but if you round them right, they will run right to your infantry. Then, advance your infantry, but while your center only walks, your flanks run, and with your heavy cavalry you completly surround the enemies' missile cavalry. Then, well, your heavy infantry will destroy them in melee, and if they rout they are trapped. Ok, they will fight to death but they are light cavalry without space to run so they will be the ones to be dying. The only problem with this tactic is that a human player will understand what you are doing and avoid you, unless you are good using ambushes. Yet you can more or less pull it out against the AI. By the wya, i copyed Alexander's strategic, just in case it looks familiar lol.

Note: thanks for adding me to the status of member. It's good to able to correct my mistakes :)

[TheImp]

Hey thelmp.
Perhaps you should delete the very last word of your signature. There are still people reading the Song of Ice and Fire. Besides you should never be too sure about anything that isn't 100% sure in those books ;)

Sorry for beeing offtopic, but that signature is very much a spoiler...

Sorry for the spamming guys, it's just to give a bit of explanation here.

I'm not revealing anything about the books, be sure of that. It is just a conviction based on what i read and what other people think. And as i live in a world where i can give my opinion, i use this right here. So i won't erase the last word of my signature cause it is not a spoiler. End of the story.

"A lannister always pays his debts"

[PrestigeX]

The way i do it , is that i try to out gun them with my own archers, i try to use foot archers in 'loose' , who are supported by spear or pike units.. It only works well if you can get it so that ur archers stay their ground and the enemy gets scared away from getting too close and caught up by ur infantry.. The idea is that as they adjust their position they will lose troops.

[Nikos_Rouvelas]

sorry I guess Hobilars was a bad answer! I never play as England so I thought they were better then they appear to be! On a side note, if you play as Byzantium your HA are usually better armed then the other HA so you could charge them into Weaker HA.

[Czar Alexsandr]

Sometimes, when i use nations how rely on heavy cavalry and heavy infantry I use this strategy to fight the mongols: put the hourse archers firing at your heavy infantry, they will take some casualties but with a good shield and armor the casualties can be minimized. Now, use your heavy cavalry to turn around the enemies' fast cavalry. They will obviously outrun your heavy cavalry, but if you round them right, they will run right to your infantry. Then, advance your infantry, but while your center only walks, your flanks run, and with your heavy cavalry you completly surround the enemies' missile cavalry. Then, well, your heavy infantry will destroy them in melee, and if they rout they are trapped. Ok, they will fight to death but they are light cavalry without space to run so they will be the ones to be dying. The only problem with this tactic is that a human player will understand what you are doing and avoid you, unless you are good using ambushes. Yet you can more or less pull it out against the AI. By the wya, i copyed Alexander's strategic, just in case it looks familiar lol.

Note: thanks for adding me to the status of member. It's good to able to correct my mistakes :)

Bah it's fine!

I never thought about using the infantry like that really. I generally use my abundance of cavalry to catch my enemy horse archers. But the infantry are a viable option to. Does the tactic work good for you?

[18zulukiller]

If its late on in the game use demi lancers to counter horse archers there much faster than any other cavalry unit England gets (including guilds).

[Guru]

If its late on in the game use demi lancers to counter horse archers there much faster than any other cavalry unit England gets (including guilds).

I think demi lancers are as fast as hobilars, mailed knights and merchant cavalry/cavalry militia.

- Guru

[alpaca]

Bah it's fine!

I never thought about using the infantry like that really. I generally use my abundance of cavalry to catch my enemy horse archers. But the infantry are a viable option to. Does the tactic work good for you?

It works decently against the AI at least, I have no idea against a human opponent.

I think most viable tactics have been mentioned already, use all of them to good advantage. Interestingly, what hasn't been mentioned yet is that a lot of times it makes sense to just take the hits from the HA.
A lot of units will heal after the battle and the horses will tire, especially if you lay them under fire and they form a cantabrian circle (which is also good because it reduces their accuracy by a huge margin). When they're out of ammo you can usually even catch them with a fresh bodyguard or at least shoo them into a corner with two or three cav units to take them out.

You could also try using ambushes (drive them into the woods where some inf is waiting) but that's a bit hard to pull off as most areas where you find HA aren't exactly very wooded.

Besides, catching them when they're using the circle often works, too. Just make sure you run through and don't hit attack because that'll make the skirmish distance shorter and more often than not this won't allow them to reform and run away properly.

[Sir Losealot]

Lot's of good input. Sounds like most folks are using cavalry to circle and push HA into corner or into infantry (I've got to try that). That's similar to what I've been trying. When I've gotten really stuck though is when I've found myself with almost no cav left after a particularly tough battle.
Take this scenario. After starting badly outnumbered, I've barely beaten the main Turk force and I'm left with a winded and decimated spear line, a few archers who survived the HA (with almost no arrows left), and my general with a few bodyguards. My cav gave their lives in desperate charges to save the rest of my force. At this point against a Western power I would now eliminate the few scattered enemy forces and have a victory to be proud of. The problem is there are 2 or 3 Turk HA that are still roaming about. Without the cav, I can't corner them. Do I hit escape and take a loss? Do I try to sweep them with my few spearmen and general and probably lose the rest of the spearmen? I own the battlefield but I can't win.
I guess this just reflects reality. I've used up my fast moving units to save my army, and I don't have a tool left to tackle the fast horse archers.

[Shahed]

In that situation the best thing is just to form up and sit still in loose formation. Let them use up their arrows and see what they do, probably nothing. By this time you've got some stamina back up and you can start trying to corner them.

The best thing is not to be in that situation in the first place, by targetting them first. They will usually come ahead of the main enemy line so you will be able to deal with them before the rest.

When I play Westerns I always line up my archers ahead and shoot the enemy HA down as quickly as possible, hence I've only been in the situation you described once, or twice.

If you have an Eastern All Cavalry Army:

• Target the enemy missile cavalry with your own at a preferable ratio of 2:1 in your favor.
• Start a wide encirclement with melee cavalry on the enemy missile cavalry.
• Close the encirclement with melee cavalry, and switch your missile cavalry to melee.
• Take as many units of enemy missile cavalry out at once as is feasible according to battle conditions.

[alpaca]

Lot's of good input. Sounds like most folks are using cavalry to circle and push HA into corner or into infantry (I've got to try that). That's similar to what I've been trying. When I've gotten really stuck though is when I've found myself with almost no cav left after a particularly tough battle.
Take this scenario. After starting badly outnumbered, I've barely beaten the main Turk force and I'm left with a winded and decimated spear line, a few archers who survived the HA (with almost no arrows left), and my general with a few bodyguards. My cav gave their lives in desperate charges to save the rest of my force. At this point against a Western power I would now eliminate the few scattered enemy forces and have a victory to be proud of. The problem is there are 2 or 3 Turk HA that are still roaming about. Without the cav, I can't corner them. Do I hit escape and take a loss? Do I try to sweep them with my few spearmen and general and probably lose the rest of the spearmen? I own the battlefield but I can't win.
I guess this just reflects reality. I've used up my fast moving units to save my army, and I don't have a tool left to tackle the fast horse archers.

Yeah I have to agree to Sinan, that's a situation you don't want to be in in the first place. There's pretty much nothing to win here, but sometimes the AI will charge you with their HA once they are out of arrows so I'd try to wait it out. I always play with battle timer enabled to avoid a "draw" in these situations (well if you're attacking and you can't destroy the enemy army you lost the battle).

[18zulukiller]

I think demi lancers are as fast as hobilars, mailed knights and merchant cavalry/cavalry militia.

- Guru

My bad ive just run some tests basically a race from one side of the map to the the other side (custom battle on grassy plains) and demi lancers came in slightly behind hobbilars every time (very last). Templars, Hospitilars, Feudal & English all come in about equal with late period generals body guard normally always winning by a horses lenght.

God i dont know why i said use demi lancers (i think i just though they were faster) before as i never normally use them i normally always use English knights or Templars and they work a treat at killing horse archers. Even the Mongol & Timurid heavey HA are mince meat as long as you send your general with them (just pull him to the back when you've caught them)

[ixidor]

Bah it's fine!

I never thought about using the infantry like that really. I generally use my abundance of cavalry to catch my enemy horse archers. But the infantry are a viable option to. Does the tactic work good for you?

Yep. To be honest i had tried it as much as, what, 3 times? But until know have been working fine (against AI). You just have to adjust well the timings and the distances because you can't pass too close from the HA while you are rounding them or they will run out of your trap, but you can't go too far or they will have room to flee. But if you move them right and if you have a decent coordinated attack, thus avoiding escapes from your trap, they are doomed.

[Czar Alexsandr]

Yep. To be honest i had tried it as much as, what, 3 times? But until know have been working fine (against AI). You just have to adjust well the timings and the distances because you can't pass too close from the HA while you are rounding them or they will run out of your trap, but you can't go too far or they will have room to flee. But if you move them right and if you have a decent coordinated attack, thus avoiding escapes from your trap, they are doomed.

Just a few days ago I had a battle where the enemy had a lot of the pesky Turkomen horse archers... Needless to mention they escaped my Boyar Son, Druzhina, and General's Bodyguard trap. Well.. I got em back eventually but horse archers are particullary more difficult to kill with the trait Fast Moving. Just a reminder. Gotta take caution when dealing with the exceptionaly nimble.

[ixidor]

Try to target some units instead of all the army at once. It will take more time but it will be quite more effective.