Balance in Kingdoms - myth or reality

[zaher]

That's funny, I routinely flatten Egyptian stacks with the patented right click ctrl+R. The only good way of getting a grasp of M2TW is trial and error. There's just too many things that effect a battle. It jsut comes down to if you're willing to adapt to the system, you'll do well. Forget everything you think you know and start from the ground up. If you can't then you'll just hate the game and should just go and buy an FPS.

You are half-right. Yes, half of problem is me, but another half is AI. AI making his decisions too. Thats why when i had only 2-3 units of peasant archer AI started shotout with his better archers ( 6-8 units in stack usually), but when i started to train long range crossbowmen with high missile attack, all AI doing is rushing with all his army without any outshot. You think it is more interesting now? For me - not. So, i dont train long range crossbowmen AND cavalry now. So, half of my army is shaving peasant archers ( prussian ones ), and another - heavy infantry. You think it can be interesting? From my experience I tell you - not. If it was - i'd prefere to play the game now, instead of writing here.

[zaher]

Hah! Owned!.

Lol, Varro demonstrating exactly the thing, which caused some personnel to "balance" the game. If blitz is Varro's style of play, i feel sorry for him. But it make me feel more sure in what i do now, because i hope, that more players playing normal games, not just uber ones, and minority really wanted those changes in balance. Here comes the Real World. Hello !

[Malkut]

Lol, Varro demonstrating exactly the thing, which caused some personnel to "balance" the game. If blitz is Varro's style of play, i feel sorry for him.

Yeah, poor guy. How terrible it must be to enjoy the game his way.

But it make me feel more sure in what i do now, because i hope, that more players playing normal games, not just uber ones, and minority really wanted those changes in balance.

I pace myself, and I didn't even notice the changes until I read about them here.

Here comes the Real World. Hello!

This isn't the real world. This is a game. It's for enjoyment. If you aren't enjoying it, then why are you still playing it? Go get your money back and use it to take a girl out



^ That's what you should be doing, instead of reading this post.

[ReiseReise]

You're looking at the info scroll, those stats are almost useless, the important question is how do they actually perform in battle. The answer is simple, the cav will make many many more kills on impact than the dismounted. That is why the cav have lower stats, to prevent them from being terrifically overpowered. That IS balance, not a lack of it.

Stats don't mean anything, look at the Aztecs Eagle Warriors and Jaguar Warriors. Defense, morale, stamina basically the same, but the Eagles have a much greater attack. Even though they have lower attack, the Jaguars cost are a better unit, they cost more per man and need an upgraded building (same type but 1 higher), and most important, one Jaguars (75) will crush 2 Eagles (2x60).

[antisocialmunky]

You are half-right. Yes, half of problem is me, but another half is AI. AI making his decisions too. Thats why when i had only 2-3 units of peasant archer AI started shotout with his better archers ( 6-8 units in stack usually), but when i started to train long range crossbowmen with high missile attack, all AI doing is rushing with all his army without any outshot. You think it is more interesting now? For me - not. So, i dont train long range crossbowmen AND cavalry now. So, half of my army is shaving peasant archers ( prussian ones ), and another - heavy infantry. You think it can be interesting? From my experience I tell you - not. If it was - i'd prefere to play the game now, instead of writing here.

That does suck. You know what also sucks? You can't hammer and anvil in this game. By the time your knights get behind the enemy, half their army's already routed. I don't like not having missile duels either. The game IMHO is too fast and the AI not strategic enough. Maybe thsi is just playing too much EB talking but...

However, it may just be the campaign you're playing. The Crusader Campaign has decent missile fights. Its usually archer vs HA though so its probably still not what you're looking for.

If you wuvz your missile units, then you might try and make an archer + cavalry army. If you have knights and decent archers then you pretty much have a wannabe army of HA. It works out fairly well against infantry heavy armies in my crusader campaign especially because they get to shoot flaming with a low trajectory meaning they get ridiculous accuracy with flaming death.

[Guru]

its a foot polearm unit with attack 19 charge 9 and defence 23, without shield in animations and on picture, but +8 shield at stats.

P.S. I just want to add , that on VH difficulty, any cavalry cannot make sucsessfull charge even when not under missile fire, they just acting like untrained drunk stupid peasant childs which riding horse first time.

I've heard that shields work properly in Kingdoms regardless of the numbers in unit cards. That means Giltine's Chosen have ("only") 15 defence points. I'll test this battle later when Kingdoms decides to start properly... Something wrong with the refresh rate of my screen I guess.
Prefect charges are not too hard to pull off. I wonder if we are playing the same game at all? There was a short guide to successful charges somewhere on these forums if I remember correctly...

EDIT: I did a test battle, on VH, medium unit sizes. Polish guard (me) vs Giltine's Chosen (AI). That's 30 riders vs 40 heavy infantrymen. Polish guard won although they fared pretty poorly, losing most of their men. Both units charged so Giltine's Chosen had an attack of 26 (attack 19 + charge bonus of 7), which could explain the high number of dead Polish guards. I expected the Polish Guard to suffer less casualties. I dont know if Giltine's men get +4 bonus against cavalry. The unit card says they are good against cavalry. They are effective against armour too. I ran another battle, with Giltine's men under my command this time. 1 Unit of Giltine's men against 2 units of Ritterbruder. Giltine's men slaughtered those poor knights. Elite heavy cavalry should not be cut down like that... Under human control 2 units of Ritterbruder slaughter 1 unit of Giltine's Chosen though.

You're looking at the info scroll, those stats are almost useless, the important question is how do they actually perform in battle. The answer is simple, the cav will make many many more kills on impact than the dismounted. That is why the cav have lower stats, to prevent them from being terrifically overpowered. That IS balance, not a lack of it.

These are the words I've been looking for! Thank you! From my experiences light cavalry is still able to harass archers and charge vulnerable flanks and heavy cavalry is still able to wipe out whole units in seconds.

That does suck. You know what also sucks? You can't hammer and anvil in this game. By the time your knights get behind the enemy, half their army's already routed. I don't like not having missile duels either. The game IMHO is too fast and the AI not strategic enough. Maybe thsi is just playing too much EB talking but...

What! And now you are telling me! I've been using hammer and anvil (or even 2-4 hammers alone) since I got the game.
About those missing missile duels: "Arrows cost. The dead cost nothing. Send in the infantry." Most of the time I see the AI doing things that even human could do on a real battlefield. Not all actions of men are rational. Most of them are not rational.

- Guru

[uruk-hai]

heavy cavalry or just about any cavalry unit with a lance can still destroy units in secs.now spearmen can kill CAVALRY!besides now we have two units that can kill heavy cavalry spearmen and pikemen.i got to say from playing kingdoms the ai is much better then in was in m2tw.now its more likely to end a war and less likely fight to the death.besides ending wars gives you time to rebuild your armys and get ready once agian for war or the same thing for the enemy.

[zaher]

However, it may just be the campaign you're playing. The Crusader Campaign has decent missile fights. Its usually archer vs HA though so its probably still not what you're looking for. .

I started to understand something. Kingdoms have 4 campaigns, 90% of factions are based on missile units. It was bad choice to start Kingdoms as Teutonic order. I started American campaign as Apache and enjoy it so far without knights. I guess, archer based Britain campaign can be played without cavalry too. Duno about Crusaders, but again, there are Mongols, Egypt and Turks there. Also, in Teutonic campaign , Mongols,Lithuania and Novgorod can benefit from current balance. But if you want to play factions like Poland, Danes, HRE, Spain, Byz or Crusader kingdoms you will suffer.

[icek]

now i dont understand you mate. im with you when it comes to cavalry role in battlefield but talking about weak cavalry of new spain, poland and crusaders is

[zaher]

now i dont understand you mate. im with you when it comes to cavalry role in battlefield but talking about weak cavalry of new spain, poland and crusaders is

I only guess mate, only guess. Because only campaigns i tryed are Teutonic as Teutons ( turn 85 ) and Americas as Apache ( turn 15 ). All my impressions was from playing Teutonic campaign with non-misile oriented faction. And i can tell - yes, Christ knights, Halbrudder and Rittenbruder are weak, they cannot correctly play role of heavy cavalry on battlefield and i dont use them, i take more Prussian archers instead.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

May I request that you calm down and refrain from transforming this thread into a hostile environment. If you feel the need to, use the "report post button" () to forward any problematic messenges to staff. Thanks!

[sapi]

May I request that you calm down and refrain from transforming this thread into a hostile environment. If you feel the need to, use the "report post button" () to forward any problematic messenges to staff. Thanks!

[zaher]

May I request that you calm down and refrain from transforming this thread into a hostile environment. If you feel the need to, use the "report post button" () to forward any problematic messenges to staff. Thanks!

Done! Thanks, I didnt knew about it.

Plz delete this post and others, which reffering to deleted subject post too.

[antisocialmunky]

What! And now you are telling me! I've been using hammer and anvil (or even 2-4 hammers alone) since I got the game.

I'd like to see how, the only time where I can actually managed to do that was in a battle against the Salah Al Din ands his uber high chivalry. Most battles for me end up in:

Enemy Charge
I run by cavalry behind or attack the enemy cavalry
Enemy Infantry runs for the hill
I r sad kitten.

[nameless]

That does suck. You know what also sucks? You can't hammer and anvil in this game. By the time your knights get behind the enemy, half their army's already routed. I don't like not having missile duels either. The game IMHO is too fast and the AI not strategic enough. Maybe thsi is just playing too much EB talking but...

You must be playing on easy.

Playing on VH I always find my lines overstretching and on the verge of collapsing because my cavalry needs to route the enemy cavalry and skirmishers away before they get a good shot at smashing the enemy from the rear. But then again in the crusades campaign the saracens usually deploy skirmishers and heavy cavalry with light infantry which basically get routed ANYWAYS by heavy infantry. The dismounted Harahsium however stands well against the knights.

Seriously, Zaher, if you learned anything from MTW2 stats is like one of dozen of factors that needs to be taken in for a unit's performance. Spearmen have higher charge ratings than swordsmen do but regardless swordsmen still beat spearmen.

I hated RTW because you basically win by just spamming cavalry.

[zaher]

Seriously, Zaher, if you learned anything from MTW2 stats is like one of dozen of factors that needs to be taken in for a unit's performance. Spearmen have higher charge ratings than swordsmen do but regardless swordsmen still beat spearmen.

I know what you mean - animations. Yes swordsmen can swing sword twice before spearmen swing spear once. In situation infantry vs infantry all is ok. Or cavalry vs cavalry. When it mixed - it get problems.

I usually playing on VH difficulty, and can say, that heavy knights performance ( ability to charge, speed Etc ) in Kingdoms isnt so good as in MTW2 v1.2. They acting like in MTW2 before any patches ( cannot charge until unit is not moving, cannot catch routers Etc ). Dont know how is it on medium difficulty terrain, but still...

[antisocialmunky]

You must be playing on easy.

Playing on VH I always find my lines overstretching and on the verge of collapsing because my cavalry needs to route the enemy cavalry and skirmishers away before they get a good shot at smashing the enemy from the rear. But then again in the crusades campaign the saracens usually deploy skirmishers and heavy cavalry with light infantry which basically get routed ANYWAYS by heavy infantry. The dismounted Harahsium however stands well against the knights.

Nah, VH/VH. Maybe the general's chiv made a difference, I used a 0 chiv/dread general and a 10 chiv general and got the same result either way with and without fire arrows. I would expect insta routs from uber dread guys but I don't have any. They don't use anything too bad except peasants - mostly spear militia, Ghulum dismounts, ghazis. Maybe I just fight too well or you fight lots of chivalrous guys..

Edit: Maybe its the fatigue penalties?

[Cadwallon]

Spearmen - be they militia or pikemen DO have an advantage over horsemen. Its well known that even well trained warhorses baulk at charging spears - which would negate much of the charge bonus. Why is it that upon the arrival of the Swiss Pike formation on the battle, that this suddenly became the dominant unit on the field? Also, horses, and therefore their rider are vulnerable to the spear, even to archers with knives hamstringing the horses. Perhaps this is represented in the rebalancing in Kingdoms of HC vs spears.

If Zaher is only up to turn 15 in the America's campaign as the apache, then its highly likely he won't have obtained cavalry or muskets yet. Apaches play very differently to other armies - as I've said elsewhere - expect many casualties and defeats before you get any units that can go toe to toe with Mesoamerican heavy infantry. If Zaher has only effectively played one out of four campaigns - I think its a bit early to be complaining about balance.

One comment I might make is about the use of stakes. Vs cavalry heavy armies (like mongols) one unit of lithuanian archers, with stakes in front of the gates did for virtually 4 stacks of cavalry. Same goes when defending bridges. I went from having a serious mongol problem to mopping up 3-5 turns later.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Zaher is making a lot of noise for someone who's played so little of kingdoms

[pevergreen]

If Zaher has only effectively played one out of four campaigns - I think its a bit early to be complaining about balance.

Zaher is making a lot of noise for someone who's played so little of kingdoms

[icek]

I only guess mate, only guess. Because only campaigns i tryed are Teutonic as Teutons ( turn 85 ) and Americas as Apache ( turn 15 ). All my impressions was from playing Teutonic campaign with non-misile oriented faction. And i can tell - yes, Christ knights, Halbrudder and Rittenbruder are weak, they cannot correctly play role of heavy cavalry on battlefield and i dont use them, i take more Prussian archers instead.

I dont know how you charge in those archers with the most powerfull teunonic cavalry because if you would do it correctly there would be 200% of chances that archers would flee due to charge/frighten effect of cavalry. If you play as teutons you need to aim not for armies but for settlements. in close area horse archers will eventually meet your pancer-spearmen and pikemen in main plaza and will be slaughtered.

[zaher]

Pevergreen, Varro and Cadwallon ! Yes i played only Teuton campaign in Kingdoms. I also played every faction in MTW2. Hey, i wanna play Kingdoms after all! So, you acussing me that i played too little? I played Teutons, thats enought for me to find difference in balance of knights, archers and infantry between same factions in game and its expansion.

Or you wanted me to call this topic " Balance in Teutonic campaign"?

[zaher]

I dont know how you charge in those archers with the most powerfull teunonic cavalry because if you would do it correctly there would be 200% of chances that archers would flee due to charge/frighten effect of cavalry. If you play as teutons you need to aim not for armies but for settlements. in close area horse archers will eventually meet your pancer-spearmen and pikemen in main plaza and will be slaughtered.

I winning easy as Teuton in open field now, having 8-10 Prussian archers in every army.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Pevergreen, Varro and Cadwallon ! Yes i played only Teuton campaign in Kingdoms. I also played every faction in MTW2. Hey, i wanna play Kingdoms after all! So, you acussing me that i played too little? I played Teutons, thats enought for me to find difference in balance of knights, archers and infantry between same factions in game and its expansion.

Or you wanted me to call this topic " Balance in Teutonic campaign"?

I am accusing you of accusing me of being the reason for the rebalance and quite thankfull as for it. Muahahahaha . Have fun with your game and remember it was probably real hard to make so give kudos when deserved (if deserved) because the ppl who made this read this forum.

[zaher]

There are always those, who developing something, and those, who think, that it need rebalance and rebuild like they like. After all, make your own games with balance YOU prefere. I was happy with CA products and their patches until customers became "developers". Thats why i dont play mods. I like original things, inspired by idea and enthusiasm of those , who developing it. Some customers have more IQ or time to do what they want reassembling ready for use product in a way like they like. But they are stil not a developers.

So, good luck, CA with new titles, but dont break your line in a middle. Dont let diletants to make games for us, normal customers, 99% of which even dont read this forum.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

So in other words your beef is actually with Lusted not Kingdoms.

[Ulstan]

The completely ill informed and constant complaints from Zaher are getting more and more amusing by the second.

I find it particularly droll that his idea of balance depends on a dismounted soldier and a mounted soldier functioning the exact same way.

I was happy with CA products and their patches until they changed it so that you couldn't spam all cavalry armies anymore and archers could actually kill people

There. Fixed. That's your *real* beef, Zaher. CA has made balance changes with every patch and expansion. Don't pretend that the out of the box version achieved some sort zen-like holy balance whose sanctity must be upheld in perpetuity. Each change has followed a logical path of making the game more and more balanced.

You apparently preferred an earlier broken, imblanced version. Sucks for you. I'm sure you can find a mod somewhere though, to play the game 'your' way, instead of the more balanced 'CA' way.

[Jack Lusted]

There are always those, who developing something, and those, who think, that it need rebalance and rebuild like they like. After all, make your own games with balance YOU prefere. I was happy with CA products and their patches until customers became "developers". Thats why i dont play mods. I like original things, inspired by idea and enthusiasm of those , who developing it. Some customers have more IQ or time to do what they want reassembling ready for use product in a way like they like. But they are stil not a developers.

So, good luck, CA with new titles, but dont break your line in a middle. Dont let diletants to make games for us, normal customers, 99% of which even dont read this forum.

I've said this before but i'll repeat it: it's not my balance. 99% of the work was done by Jason Turnbull aka Palamedes, a developer with our Oz studio. Myself and other modders provided input and testing on the balance nothing more. I wrote the blog on the balancing once i became a CA employee as i knew it better than anyone else in the UK office.

So it's a developer, not modder, made balance, and what the Oz studio wanted for balance. The customers/modders are not the developers, but they do have good ideas. And some of us might even become part of the company at some point.

[zaher]

So in other words your beef is actually with Lusted not Kingdoms.

I never met Lusted, dont know him privately , never participated in any forum discussion he participated.

I am against those, who wanted to dictate their will right now, in the middle of game called MTW2 and its expansion called Kingdoms, i consider it ONE game scince Kingdoms isnt stand-alone game. Why "balance" wasnt implemented in 1.2 patch for MTW2 then?


" I've said this before but i'll repeat it: it's not my balance. 99% of the work was done by Jason Turnbull aka Palamedes, a developer with our Oz studio. Myself and other modders provided input and testing on the balance nothing more. I wrote the blog on the balancing once i became a CA employee as i knew it better than anyone else in the UK office." - Lusted.


So why Palamedes didnt balanced MTW2 from start? Why no balance with 1.2 patch? Enthusiasm is a good thing, but it is good for new ideas and projects. "Balancing" mean only developing subjective point of view of one men or minor group of enthusiasts, which dont like existing ways. Its like the wake of Communism in Russia. Yeah, the Tzar goverment wasnt so good, but was communism better? But the mass was fooled in eather way. There is a company " New Balance" making sport footware. Adepts of Balance (any, who is ) must work there or make their own games or mods.
I tried LTC mod, i even cannot say i dont liked it. I maked some turns and returned to play original game, just because i liked it more. LTC mod is just a first thing, which come to comprassion with existing Kingdoms balance. All i wish to Lusted is luck and success in his further work/job.



"I was happy with CA products and their patches until customers became "developers". "- Zaher



"Quote:
"I was happy with CA products and their patches until they changed it so that you couldn't spam all cavalry armies anymore and archers could actually kill people " - Ulstan.

This is a perfect example of how Ulstan "balanced" me, and how "balancing" working basically everywhere. Yes, he "quoted" me, but this is not what i said.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

I give up. I thought that i was the forum loonie. Untill now that is