Sword and spear units

**NeoSpartan** · 09-15-2007, 18:05

OK fellas I need ur help here.

I know that by pressing ALT-click sword/spear units will use thier secondary weapon. BUT here is my question...

IS there anyway to keep those units to use thier primary weapon only?

Here is the thing, I ran some tests with the Soldurus last night and the guys got HAMMERED by the Cohors Imperatoria in a bad way. I noticed that the issue was the Soldurus kept switching back and forth from spear to sword and vise-versa. NOW, the gallic sword has more lethality than the legionaries and because of that the Neitos, Carnute & Gaestae, were able do kill more of legionaries. (the Carnute and Gaestae doing the most killing)

Any tips....

Btw I have EB 8.1a, non of the temporary fixes, and have not taken out any of the "short spear attributes". Still, the lethality of the gallic sword is greater than the spear's.

**Foot** · 09-15-2007, 18:22

Nope, no way unless you get rid of the secondary weapon.

If they charge, they charge with their secondary weapon. Once in combat they will use their primary weapon until they are knocked down, whereupon they will switch to their secondary weapon (permanently, I believe).

Foot

**NeoSpartan** · 09-15-2007, 18:28

DANG IT!

I guess they won't get any playtime in MP... eventhough the skin is F!ing awesome

**mcantu** · 09-15-2007, 18:30

Originally Posted by NeoSpartan

OK fellas I need ur help here.

I know that by pressing ALT-click sword/spear units will use thier secondary weapon. BUT here is my question...

IS there anyway to keep those units to use thier primary weapon only?

Here is the thing, I ran some tests with the Soldurus last night and the guys got HAMMERED by the Cohors Imperatoria in a bad way. I noticed that the issue was the Soldurus kept switching back and forth from spear to sword and vise-versa. NOW, the gallic sword has more lethality than the legionaries and because of that the Neitos, Carnute & Gaestae, were able do kill more of legionaries. (the Carnute and Gaestae doing the most killing)

Any tips....

Btw I have EB 8.1a, non of the temporary fixes, and have not taken out any of the "short spear attributes". Still, the lethality of the gallic sword is greater than the spear's.

Thats meant to be that way. Spear units get a penalty against sword armed infantry. Individual soldiers in a spear unit will switch to swords when an enemy gets in closer than the end of the spear as the sword is more effective

**NeoSpartan** · 09-15-2007, 18:49

Originally Posted by mcantu

Thats meant to be that way. Spear units get a penalty against sword armed infantry. Individual soldiers in a spear unit will switch to swords when an enemy gets in closer than the end of the spear as the sword is more effective

true.... unfortunatly the whole "getting knocked down and comming up with the spear RTW engine issue" messes that up.

**Watchman** · 09-15-2007, 18:51

Uh... that's MTW. In RTW it's just that if a weapon has been given the "spear" attribute in the EDU it gets a bonus against cavalry and penalty against infantry. Weapon lehality is an entirely different thing, whatever now was written in the appropriate point in EDU for the weapon.

**mcantu** · 09-15-2007, 19:01

Originally Posted by Watchman

Uh... that's MTW. In RTW it's just that if a weapon has been given the "spear" attribute in the EDU it gets a bonus against cavalry and penalty against infantry. Weapon lehality is an entirely different thing, whatever now was written in the appropriate point in EDU for the weapon.

I have become convinced that the attack and defense bonuses of light_spear/spear were separated with the 1.5 (1.3?) patch. In tests I have done, it seems that spear units only get their bonus against cavalry if you combine light_spear/spear with spear_bonus_x

See my post here...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...8&postcount=15

**Patriote** · 09-17-2007, 02:35

you mean the "mount effect" like Horse+2 Camel+2 or is this spear_bonus_x is something totally different ??

**mcantu** · 09-17-2007, 03:08

Originally Posted by Patriote

you mean the "mount effect" like Horse+2 Camel+2 or is this spear_bonus_x is something totally different ??

They are 2 different things...

**Centurio Nixalsverdrus** · 09-17-2007, 21:59

Iirc I once read here on the forum "having swords as primary and spears as secondary weapon is the only way to make them charge with their spears". Is that right or was it the other way round?

Why do they have to charge with their spears? I would charge with a sword. A spear is a defensive weapon, isn't it? Why not try it and switch it, perhaps it would work better?

**Foot** · 09-17-2007, 22:13

why is a spear a defensive weapon? A spear can be used both defensively and offensively, and charging with your sword and then changing to a spear is how to get yourself killed.

Foot

**Centurio Nixalsverdrus** · 09-17-2007, 22:26

In reality or in EB?

**Foot** · 09-17-2007, 22:35

that last part is in the rtw engine. The first part is in reality. A spear isn't just a jab, jab weapon. Charging with it makes perfect sense as well, as the distance helps protect you, but you still get a decent attack at the end.

Foot

**bovi** · 09-18-2007, 15:14

Seems to me a really bad choice in reality as well. Why charge into close proximity with the sword, then change to the spear which has longer reach and therefore is unwieldy at your then-current minimal distance?

**mcantu** · 09-18-2007, 15:15

Also, charge bonuses are higher for spears than swords...

**Centurio Nixalsverdrus** · 09-19-2007, 19:13

OK OK. My thaughts were in using spears only for defense and swords for attack, without switching after charging, but that seems out of reach for the RTW-engine.

Most units described as "assault troops" in EB don't were spears. Taxeis Triballoi come to my mind, Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi, Thraikioi Peltastai. And I'm just a little upset because my shiny fancy elite über ass kicker royal imperial Hypaspistai use their swords only for parade duty, not for severing heads from their enemies. So I thought it would be nice if they use their spears for parade duty, like Thureophoroi, and then go attacking with their swords by ALT-click, which is a safe bet for no weapon-switching at all methinks.

**NeoSpartan** · 09-20-2007, 19:01

Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

OK OK. My thaughts were in using spears only for defense and swords for attack, without switching after charging, but that seems out of reach for the RTW-engine.

Most units described as "assault troops" in EB don't were spears. Taxeis Triballoi come to my mind, Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi, Thraikioi Peltastai. And I'm just a little upset because my shiny fancy elite über ass kicker royal imperial Hypaspistai use their swords only for parade duty, not for severing heads from their enemies. So I thought it would be nice if they use their spears for parade duty, like Thureophoroi, and then go attacking with their swords by ALT-click, which is a safe bet for no weapon-switching at all methinks.

yep thats why i also don't use Hypaspistai in MP either. Sad though 'cause they are sweet looking too

**mirmorix** · 09-28-2007, 07:17

Why some units /like my classical hoplites/ fight still with spears even if i press alt button? I see that they have also swords on belt........

**Thaatu** · 09-28-2007, 07:48

Originally Posted by mirmorix

Why some units /like my classical hoplites/ fight still with spears even if i press alt button? I see that they have also swords on belt........

Most hoplite style spearmen don't have a secondary weapon, because that would cause them to use their swords when not fighting. It would make hoplites a little too ineffective against cavalry charges.

**Bonny** · 09-28-2007, 13:53

Why some units /like my classical hoplites/ fight still with spears even if i press alt button? I see that they have also swords on belt.....

there are only some elite units who have both weapons. All Hoplite units have only spears (the sword in the belt is only for decoration)

swords by ALT-click, which is a safe bet for no weapon-switching at all methinks.

for me it works, i attack infantry units with normal attack click (after some time i need to click again beause of the weapon change after the knockdown), and use the alt click against ponys.

**NeoSpartan** · 09-28-2007, 20:53

Originally Posted by Bonny

.... and use the alt click against ponys.

I think u mean "horsies"

**Tellos Athenaios** · 09-28-2007, 21:19

I don't quite get why people seem to think Hypaspists don't use their swords? Just letting them do their job the way they like it best... And see: they will be cutting their way through using swords.