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Originally Posted by :
The smoking-gun 1991 document his own Justice Department introduced into evidence at the Holy Land Foundation trial in Dallas. The FBI captured it in a raid on a Muslim suspect's home in Virginia.
This "explanatory memorandum," as it's titled, outlines the "strategic goal" for the North American operation of the extremist Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan). Here's the key paragraph:
The smoking-gun 1991 document his own Justice Department introduced into evidence at the Holy Land Foundation trial in Dallas. The FBI captured it in a raid on a Muslim suspect's home in Virginia.
This "explanatory memorandum," as it's titled, outlines the "strategic goal" for the North American operation of the extremist Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan). Here's the key paragraph:
Originally Posted by :
The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.4235f88.htmlThe process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.
Gee, I think that maybe running away from the middle east wouldn't be enough to appease these scum. Heck, retreating like that might even embolden them (!).
Remember, Dr. Suess doesn't approve of appeasement:
CR
Yes but being in Iraq is givening them a nice recuirting poster to wave around. Lets think of this for now in pure millitary terms. Is our presence in Iraq really making a difference in disrupting any terriorist organization that could attack us here?
Is there any chance in hell that "the terrorists" can invade/occupy/take over a western country? No.
Knowing that, is this something we should care about? Nope.
Knowing that, is this something we should care about? Nope.
Is this as opposed to Western Countries wanting to take over the East and imposing Christian law? No? No similarities? Okay, my mistake.
I fail to see how finding extremists (on any side) and attempting to paint a greater population as having those views does anything to add to the resolution of the current mess a number of western nations find themselves currently in. The more you attempt to address the extremists head on, inevitably the more extremists you create as you yourself are forced to extreme measures to try to remove them.
So I ask you CR, what discussion do you seek out of this thread? What point are you trying to make. That extremists have extreme viewpoints is something that most people are well aware of - you seem more intelligent than to parrot the obvious for no apparent reason, so I must be missing something here. Alarmist babble about some master plot to take over Islamic institutions and then colonise/kill Americans requires some harder evidence than the words of extremists alone - I'm not going to start campaigning for the Muslim's I work with, who I play sports with etc. to be removed or be granted limited rights on the basis of this alone.
Incidentally, you might just have the record for Godwin's Law - a nazi reference in the original post!
So I ask you CR, what discussion do you seek out of this thread? What point are you trying to make. That extremists have extreme viewpoints is something that most people are well aware of - you seem more intelligent than to parrot the obvious for no apparent reason, so I must be missing something here. Alarmist babble about some master plot to take over Islamic institutions and then colonise/kill Americans requires some harder evidence than the words of extremists alone - I'm not going to start campaigning for the Muslim's I work with, who I play sports with etc. to be removed or be granted limited rights on the basis of this alone.
Incidentally, you might just have the record for Godwin's Law - a nazi reference in the original post!
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.4235f88.html
Gee, I think that maybe running away from the middle east wouldn't be enough to appease these scum. Heck, retreating like that might even embolden them (!).
CR
So what brilliant tactics are CR suggesting to have an efficient approach against the jihadist horde?http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.4235f88.html
Gee, I think that maybe running away from the middle east wouldn't be enough to appease these scum. Heck, retreating like that might even embolden them (!).
CR
And considering that the article deals with the problem of radicals inside the country I'm not entirely sure what retreating from the Middle East truely has to do with it.
Edit: The art of counter-terrorism is to nail the true terrorists, without pissing off the rest of the population.
That's the beauty of propaganda, scares the enemy and bolsters the ally.
I can tell you the chances that Al-Q's perverse fantasies becoming reality are about as slim as the Pope vacationing in Afghanistan.
A few weeks ago I questioned a lot of residents and locals in a Middle Eastern country and the vast majority of people I spoke to, from all walks of life completely discredited Al-Q and all other fundamentalists (including Christian fundamentalists & Zionists). The most remarkable was a taxi driver, long beard, broken Afghan English, obviously from Kandahar (Taliban stronghold). Even this man ridiculed and insulted Bin Laden & the Taliban at leisure.
I have no fears about these whackos taking over. There needs to be a military pursuit which succeeds, but in the end they cannot be eliminated from the Earth. Their reasons for 'Jihad' must be taken from them and they shall no longer have any raison d'etre.
I can tell you the chances that Al-Q's perverse fantasies becoming reality are about as slim as the Pope vacationing in Afghanistan.
A few weeks ago I questioned a lot of residents and locals in a Middle Eastern country and the vast majority of people I spoke to, from all walks of life completely discredited Al-Q and all other fundamentalists (including Christian fundamentalists & Zionists). The most remarkable was a taxi driver, long beard, broken Afghan English, obviously from Kandahar (Taliban stronghold). Even this man ridiculed and insulted Bin Laden & the Taliban at leisure.
I have no fears about these whackos taking over. There needs to be a military pursuit which succeeds, but in the end they cannot be eliminated from the Earth. Their reasons for 'Jihad' must be taken from them and they shall no longer have any raison d'etre.
Originally Posted by :
The most remarkable was a taxi driver, long beard, broken Afghan English, obviously from Kandahar (Taliban stronghold). Even this man ridiculed and insulted Bin Laden & the Taliban at leisure.
That would be consistant with the pre-9/11 and pre-invasion reports the US did , the Taliban and AQ had outstayed their welcome and were now into unwelcome phase of the Pashtun tribal hospitality cycle and approaching the hostile phase .The most remarkable was a taxi driver, long beard, broken Afghan English, obviously from Kandahar (Taliban stronghold). Even this man ridiculed and insulted Bin Laden & the Taliban at leisure.
Originally Posted by :
The art of counter-terrorism is to nail the true terrorists, without pissing off the rest of the population.
Could you send a letter to the White House Ironside , perhaps you will have more luck than Karzai or Maliki did .The art of counter-terrorism is to nail the true terrorists, without pissing off the rest of the population.
Nice picture about the Nazis.
Of course, defeating them helped the USSR become the power it did.
Of course, defeating them helped the USSR become the power it did.
Thats laughable. Are you really that frightened of a fringe group of nuts? You think they can occupy and enslave you to their religious will?
Is it better for us to illegally invade and occupy Muslim countries and impose Christian laws? Dude, wake up, and see what's going on.
Don't believe the propaganda.
By the way, the war in Iraq is Islamic Fundamentalist's greatest ally across the world and is not doing anything to defeat "terrorists".
Is it better for us to illegally invade and occupy Muslim countries and impose Christian laws? Dude, wake up, and see what's going on.
Don't believe the propaganda.
By the way, the war in Iraq is Islamic Fundamentalist's greatest ally across the world and is not doing anything to defeat "terrorists".
Withdrawal from Middle East and policy of letting inside less muslim immigrants into America and Europe, while using military forces at home to defend against riots which may break out over such a decision, is the only way of stopping the extremist islamists from winning. The war in Iraq is not only meaningless but also the most harmful thing to both western society, and the most peaceful of the muslim societies, since it increases hatred towards the west, and the stream of immigrants who hate west inside the western countries.
Best thing is to leave them alone at home, and use military force to enforce your right to be left alone. If this is done, they don't have military or economical capabilities of forming a threat to the western world in any way whatsoever, without risking a quick American-European invasion (I'm talking about a quick disarmament, killing of armed men, and destruction of military facilities in a quick 1-10 week operation followed by withdrawal, without any attempt of occupation, which is the type of warfare the west can handle), which creates a good deterrent for them, and makes sure very few among them feel they have any excuse at all of fighting "jihad".
To those who want to stay in Iraq: do you really want to be forcedly converted to Islam? It's about time you just admit how wrong you were and help those who knew better in defending our cultural values instead of helping our enemies in destroying it just to please your own pride! Not to mention you've already made sure democracy has been undermined in our countries! Or go join the islamists, seeing as you share their goals!
Best thing is to leave them alone at home, and use military force to enforce your right to be left alone. If this is done, they don't have military or economical capabilities of forming a threat to the western world in any way whatsoever, without risking a quick American-European invasion (I'm talking about a quick disarmament, killing of armed men, and destruction of military facilities in a quick 1-10 week operation followed by withdrawal, without any attempt of occupation, which is the type of warfare the west can handle), which creates a good deterrent for them, and makes sure very few among them feel they have any excuse at all of fighting "jihad".
To those who want to stay in Iraq: do you really want to be forcedly converted to Islam? It's about time you just admit how wrong you were and help those who knew better in defending our cultural values instead of helping our enemies in destroying it just to please your own pride! Not to mention you've already made sure democracy has been undermined in our countries! Or go join the islamists, seeing as you share their goals!
Originally Posted by Zaknafien:
Thats laughable. Are you really that frightened of a fringe group of nuts? You think they can occupy and enslave you to their religious will?
Theres been attacks by al qaeda inThats laughable. Are you really that frightened of a fringe group of nuts? You think they can occupy and enslave you to their religious will?
New York (twice)
pentagon
London
Madrid
Saudi Arabia
Afganistan
Pakistan
Sinai
Istanbul
Aden
Niarobi
Jakarta and Bali
Djerba
Really, sure you wanna feel all powerful against these guys???
Originally Posted by K COSSACK:
Theres been attacks by al qaeda in
New York (twice)
pentagon
London
Madrid
Saudi Arabia
Afganistan
Pakistan
Sinai
Istanbul
Aden
Niarobi
Jakarta and Bali
Djerba
Really, sure you wanna feel all powerful against these guys???
The population of those countries put together: around 700 million?Theres been attacks by al qaeda in
New York (twice)
pentagon
London
Madrid
Saudi Arabia
Afganistan
Pakistan
Sinai
Istanbul
Aden
Niarobi
Jakarta and Bali
Djerba
Really, sure you wanna feel all powerful against these guys???
The total death toll caused by terrorists: 10.000 tops?
Yes, I'd say we have little to worry about...
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix:
Withdrawal from Middle East and policy of letting inside less muslim immigrants into America and Europe, while using military forces at home to defend against riots which may break out over such a decision, is the only way of stopping the extremist islamists from winning.
I hope Britain never takes such a course. The one good thing about the War in Iraq is that it keeps the troops away from home. If British soldiers are to be posted in mainland Britain, they should be resting, or used as an emergency reserve in case of natural disasters. They should never be used against people at home. Northern Ireland was bad enough, and that's across the sea. But we do not want another Peterloo, thank you.Withdrawal from Middle East and policy of letting inside less muslim immigrants into America and Europe, while using military forces at home to defend against riots which may break out over such a decision, is the only way of stopping the extremist islamists from winning.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
The population of those countries put together: around 700 million?
The total death toll caused by terrorists: 10.000 tops?
Yes, I'd say we have little to worry about...
Wow not caring about mass murderers in one thing, but not caring about those who died? The population of those countries put together: around 700 million?
The total death toll caused by terrorists: 10.000 tops?
Yes, I'd say we have little to worry about...
Arent you saying that, just to argue for your position?
When you look at the big picture 10,000 people dead in 6 years is not that much. 1.5 million people die from malaria every year, now add in AIDS, Darfur, malnutrition, unclean water, etc. Remember, the key word in terrorism is terror.
Sudan and Al-Quaida are kinda connected you know. That makes for hundreds of thousands of deaths, or quite possibly the largest ethnic cleansing of our times. And Darfur was a relativily arab-minded region when they were mutually respecting the south, look what it got them.
Could you explain how Al-Q and Darfur are connected?
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Sudan and Al-Quaida are kinda connected you know. That makes for hundreds of thousands of deaths, or quite possibly the largest ethnic cleansing of our times. And Darfur was a relativily arab-minded region when they were mutually respecting the south, look what it got them.
You're linking Darfur with terrorist attacks? Wow, I thought Powell was out on a limb when he presented his "evidence" against Iraq to the UN...Sudan and Al-Quaida are kinda connected you know. That makes for hundreds of thousands of deaths, or quite possibly the largest ethnic cleansing of our times. And Darfur was a relativily arab-minded region when they were mutually respecting the south, look what it got them.
BTW, you're forgetting Rwanda
@Woad: Just like I could've said it myself.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
You're linking Darfur with terrorist attacks? Wow, I thought Powell was out on a limb when he presented his "evidence" against Iraq to the UN...
BTW, you're forgetting Rwanda
Nope, I am linking Al Quaida with ethnic cleansing in Sudan. Not sure about the current happenings in Darfur, but in the south uh-huh.You're linking Darfur with terrorist attacks? Wow, I thought Powell was out on a limb when he presented his "evidence" against Iraq to the UN...
BTW, you're forgetting Rwanda
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
You're linking Darfur with terrorist attacks? Wow, I thought Powell was out on a limb when he presented his "evidence" against Iraq to the UN...
BTW, you're forgetting Rwanda
@Woad: Just like I could've said it myself.
You're linking Darfur with terrorist attacks? Wow, I thought Powell was out on a limb when he presented his "evidence" against Iraq to the UN...
BTW, you're forgetting Rwanda
@Woad: Just like I could've said it myself.
LOOOOL ! That was award winning.
Originally Posted by woad&fangs:
Could you explain how Al-Q and Darfur are connected?
http://books.google.nl/books?id=v2ss...JTnBVaA46AqACwCould you explain how Al-Q and Darfur are connected?
Basicly exterminated the 'Dinka' people
edit, oh dangit the relevant part isn't there. Should have been on page 40/following. Buy the book.
Ah, http://www.sudanreeves.org/Sections-article383-p1.html
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Nope, I am linking Al Quaida with ethnic cleansing in Sudan. Not sure about the current happenings in Darfur, but in the south uh-huh.
I'd say that's about as valid as linking people with your views(right-wing christians/euro's nationalists) to the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia.Nope, I am linking Al Quaida with ethnic cleansing in Sudan. Not sure about the current happenings in Darfur, but in the south uh-huh.
Originally Posted by :
Not sure about the current happenings in Darfur, but in the south uh-huh.
Now that is interesting , especially considering this ....Not sure about the current happenings in Darfur, but in the south uh-huh.
Originally Posted by :
Basicly exterminated the 'Dinka' people
Now then Frag , I am a bit thick so could you help me out here . Basicly exterminated the 'Dinka' people
This extermination of the dinka , does that include the various "dinka" factions slaughtering each other , does it include those who didn't like the peace settlement and went to Darfur to start fighting a new war .
I get really lost with the British French Chinese and American involvement plus all the regional players , so can you explain the Al-Qaida bit as that is really confusing , and while you are at it explain how an exterminated people now have one faction running the interim government and the other faction fighting a whole new war ?
Are they ghosts or something ? Zombies perhaps ?
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
I'd say that's about as valid as linking people with your views(right-wing christians/euro's nationalists) to the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia.
Well, also linked, many jihadi's from afghanistan fought in Bosnia and were pretty nasty. Not sure about the report of crucifications but a serbian friend says he has seen it himselve. They have been expelled only a few months ago. Why not look up Hitler's islamic SS-devisions during WWII in that area, who also, were very very nasty, in fact even shocked the german SS because of their enthousiasm.I'd say that's about as valid as linking people with your views(right-wing christians/euro's nationalists) to the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia.
Originally Posted by Tribesman:
This extermination of the dinka , does that include the various "dinka" factions slaughtering each other , does it include those who didn't like the peace settlement and went to Darfur to start fighting a new war .
Nope. The rebels are just as bad, hey it's africa.This extermination of the dinka , does that include the various "dinka" factions slaughtering each other , does it include those who didn't like the peace settlement and went to Darfur to start fighting a new war .
The rest, no can't explain that, hey it's africa.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Well, also linked, many jihadi's from afghanistan fought in Bosnia and were pretty nasty. Not sure about the report of crucifications but a serbian friend says he has seen it himselve. They have been expelled only a few months ago. Why not look up Hitler's islamic SS-devisions during WWII in that area, who also, were very very nasty, in fact even shocked the german SS because of their enthousiasm.
You're trying to make the bosnian muslims look worse than the serbian christians? Good luck. Ever heard of, oh, Srebrenica, for example? Sorry, whatever the bosnians did pales compared to that.Well, also linked, many jihadi's from afghanistan fought in Bosnia and were pretty nasty. Not sure about the report of crucifications but a serbian friend says he has seen it himselve. They have been expelled only a few months ago. Why not look up Hitler's islamic SS-devisions during WWII in that area, who also, were very very nasty, in fact even shocked the german SS because of their enthousiasm.
Originally Posted by :
Nope.
Oh so it wasn't an extermination then , you had me really worried then , what with the prospect of ghosts and zombiesNope.
Originally Posted by :
Well, also linked, many jihadi's from afghanistan fought in Bosnia and were pretty nasty.
Hey don't forget Kosovo ....now who was it that was arming and supporting those jihadis ?Well, also linked, many jihadi's from afghanistan fought in Bosnia and were pretty nasty.
Originally Posted by :
Why not look up Hitler's islamic SS-devisions during WWII in that area, who also, were very very nasty, in fact even shocked the german SS because of their enthousiasm.
Would they be more or less shocking than the croation catholic ones who did them nice little concentration camps or the orthadox ones who thought it was best in the long run ?Why not look up Hitler's islamic SS-devisions during WWII in that area, who also, were very very nasty, in fact even shocked the german SS because of their enthousiasm.
How about the Latvians , Ukranians , Lithuanians , French , Dutch , Norwegians , Danes , Spaniards......so many to choose from eh
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
You're trying to make the bosnian muslims look worse than the serbian christians? Good luck. Ever heard of, oh, Srebrenica, for example? Sorry, whatever the bosnians did pales compared to that.
Not really, these kind of things go back a long way. In eastern europe war has always been about numbers, no chivalry there.You're trying to make the bosnian muslims look worse than the serbian christians? Good luck. Ever heard of, oh, Srebrenica, for example? Sorry, whatever the bosnians did pales compared to that.
Originally Posted by Tribesman:
Hey don't forget Kosovo ....now who was it that was arming and supporting those jihadis ?
So? Rules of the game is making alliances and breaking them, doesn't change individual aspirations. It's a complex thing.Hey don't forget Kosovo ....now who was it that was arming and supporting those jihadis ?
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